Fishers Island Revisited

« **on:** August 12, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »

Just returned from a day trip to Fishers Island.My only other time there had been in 1986, so it was with cuiosity that I returned: would the course be as good as I remembered or had time embellished its merits? The answer: better than I remembered.Some comments:(1) The greens were much more interesting than I remembered. While there are not the dramatic contours of NGLA and Yale (save at the 9th, 12th and 18th), there is plenty to hold your attention and make the greens play much smaller.(2) The 10th is a wonderful hole that appears completely natural. Much better and stronger than I remembered. How many holes did Raynor design without a bunker?(3) It is hard to think of three parallel holes that are more varied than 12 - 14.(4) 1-14 are bullet-proof.(5) The 8th and 18th are first-rate two-shotters (forgey about what the card calls them).Overall, Fishers Island belongs in that small (no more than 20) group of courses where, if you heard a person say "XYZ is my favorite course in the world," you would simply nod your head knowingly and not even entertain the thought of disagreeing.

« **Reply #1 on:** August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »

The last paragraph is succinct and well done for a change. Some people grumble that Dr. MacKenzie didn't get his hands on the property, in that the finished product would be more artistic, ala Cypress Point. I for one am glad he didn't as I think it would be impossible to improve on the routing, which ultimately provides the lasting thrill each golfer receives who is fortunate to play there.Where does Fishers fit in the scheme of great courses? Australia, England, Scotland, Ireland, and Ulster each only have one course that is better than Raynor's New York masterpiece.The course could probably stand a mini-Yeamans Hall Doak touch-up but otherwise, it is literally picture perfect.

« **Reply #2 on:** August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »

I agree -- the merits of Fishers Island lie primarily in the routing: could anyone conceive of a better way to showcase perhaps the best property any course occupies? (Cypress Point has more variety -- forest, dunes, cliffs, but I'll take FI as no other course has such a variety of water settings.)Raynor's work does have a geometric "edge" to it, as opposed to MacKenzie's more flowing work with few lines. However, Raynor's work fits in perfectly with the atmosphere of the club and the island -- a throwback to the 1920s and Americana.I just have trouble picturing the 7th hole with a more flowing green and shaped bunkers rather than the simple, current straightforward (but most appealing) green complex.Bottom line: MacK 's stuff works in CA but wouldn't quite "fit in" in the northeast.

« **Reply #3 on:** August 14, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »

John, Just when you were going so well, you have to say MacK's work wouldn't "fit in the north east"???!!! How embarrassing for the family.Signed,Ashamed

« **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »

Brother Bill--In terms of quality, MacKenzie certainly belongs in the north-east as there is no finer collection of courses in the world. In terms of style, however, I wonder if his work would "fit in" with its neighbors. One of the appealing aspects of the NE's top courses is their dated charm -- from squarish greens to the artificial "edges" and lines of the work (hardly MacKenzie trademarks). It's like the button pocket on J. Press's oxford button down shirts -- you can't help but admire the stubbornly dated style.California, of course, encompasses an entirely different attitude (as you know firsthand).John

« **Reply #5 on:** September 19, 2006, 09:09:57 AM »

Quote from: John Morrissett on August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM

Bottom line: MacK 's stuff works in CA but wouldn't quite "fit in" in the northeast.

Anyone that would agree with John on this?
Any examples of how the success of an architects distinct style would be constrained by geographical borders?

« **Reply #6 on:** September 19, 2006, 09:26:55 AM »

I'd bet that if you asked John Morrissett if he'd word that sentence exactly the same today he would choose to rest on his comments...

Quote

"the merits of Fishers Island lie primarily in the routing: could anyone conceive of a better way to showcase perhaps the best property any course occupies? (Cypress Point has more variety -- forest, dunes, cliffs, but I'll take FI as no other course has such a variety of water settings.)Raynor's work does have a geometric "edge" to it, as opposed to MacKenzie's more flowing work with few lines. However, Raynor's work fits in perfectly with the atmosphere of the club and the island -- a throwback to the 1920s and Americana."

But my direct answer to your direct questions would be; it seems that MacK's work was fine for Georgia, and no I have no examples of geography precluding success for a GCA.

« **Reply #7 on:** September 19, 2006, 09:48:16 AM »

Quote from: Eric Franzen on September 19, 2006, 09:09:57 AM

Quote from: John Morrissett on August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM
Bottom line: MacK 's stuff works in CA but wouldn't quite "fit in" in the northeast.

Anyone that would agree with John on this?
Any examples of how the success of an architects distinct style would be constrained by geographical borders?

Mmmm... I guess when you think of the great North East courses... (above the Metro New York area) TCC, Essex County Club, Wannamoisett, Newport Country Club, Fisher's Island, Charles River, Kittansett.... there is definitely a 'dated' charm to these properties.

A couple of reasons why come to mind. 1) Yankee old money likes it that way and probably did back when the courses were built. 2) It is the oldest part of the country so there's only a few places where something new is noticeable in a good way. Imagine the ruckus if the Gehry building was on the Harvard campus instead of "geek central" (MIT). Only slightly smaller than the howls of protest on GCA if the 'Open Doctor' or Fazio was hired to spruce up TCC for a major. 3) The technology available for building courses on what was usually the land left over from the original housing developments in these communities meant that certain holes had to be "fitted" in between rocky outcroppings etc. you find up in these parts. That will give any course more 'quirk' than the natural flow you might find at Cypress Point. Fishers Island, from what I have read and heard, is the exception to this rule... it gives Mackenzie's routings at RM, NSWGC and Cypress Pt. a run for their money. And... let's face it, the damn course is in New York State anyway!!!

That said, if you took the site and the routing at Pasatiempo and put it in Massachusetts it would not look out of place at all.

« **Reply #8 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:04:11 AM »

You know, I played New South Wales last winter and I believe that is the only MacKenzie I have played (who did Kingston Heath, Yarra Yarra or Commonwealth) and it did not even slightly resemble my impressions of what Cypress or Augusta would feel like. Now, if you give me the benefit of the doubt that these courses are rather distinct in their feel, or presentation, I would suggest that MacKenzie could very easily have adapted to a site in the Northeastern US of A, and should not be stereotyped as possesing primarily the California attitude.

« **Reply #9 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:06:16 AM »

Quote from: Ran Morrissett on August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM

Where does Fishers fit in the scheme of great courses? Australia, England, Scotland, Ireland, and Ulster each only have one course that is better than Raynor's New York masterpiece.

Which courses?

« **Reply #10 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:40:45 AM »

Quote from: JES II on September 19, 2006, 10:04:11 AM

You know, I played New South Wales last winter and I believe that is the only MacKenzie I have played (who did Kingston Heath, Yarra Yarra or Commonwealth)

JES II,

Mackenzie bunkered Kingston Heath, but Dan Soutar completed the routing with the exception of #15 which was shortened into the exceptional one-shotter that it is by the Doctor. Yarra Yarra was designed by Alex Russell, Mackenzie's Australian partner. Commonwealth was not designed by Mackenzie, but the name of the original architect escapes me at the moment.

TK

« **Reply #11 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:47:38 AM »

Thanks Tyler, I thought MacK had at least something to do with Kingston Heath. Unfortunately, the day we played KH the 15th was out of play and the extra hole early in the round was used. We were able to walk across it and have a look though (and it surely looks awesome), but no shots.

Anyway, do you agree that NSW would not fit into a stereotype along with Cypress or Augusta from an appearance perspective?

« **Reply #12 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:52:59 AM »

Quote from: Ran Morrissett on August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM

Where does Fishers fit in the scheme of great courses? Australia, England, Scotland, Ireland, and Ulster each only have one course that is better than Raynor's New York masterpiece.

I've never played Fishers, but this seems like a bit of an overstatement.

« **Reply #13 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:57:29 AM »

Tim,

Prepare for battle!

« **Reply #14 on:** September 19, 2006, 11:07:06 AM »

Better than TOC and Royal Dornoch? Better than Royal County Down and Royal Portrush? Better than Ballybunion and Lahinch? Better than Royal St. George's and (I'm not sure what to include here) Sunningdale Old?

Could be, but I've never seen Fishers rated that high. Of course, rankings don't tell the whole story, but, having never played the course, that's what I have to go on (plus comments here).

« **Reply #15 on:** September 19, 2006, 11:11:34 AM »

Tim

I think Ran must have been smoking his hickories that day.

« **Reply #16 on:** September 19, 2006, 11:23:20 AM »

Argue as you will, redanman made the perfect 'ranking' when he said: "It (FI) is one of golf's greatest gifts to players".

« **Reply #17 on:** September 19, 2006, 11:29:01 AM »

What I think both Morrissett's are saying is that there is no point in arguing that Fisher's Island is not quite as good as Dornoch, and slightly better than TOC. They see a whole big group of courses that fit into potential "best in the world" conversations and Fisher's is one of those.

« **Reply #18 on:** September 19, 2006, 12:15:03 PM »

Quote from: JES II on September 19, 2006, 10:47:38 AM

Thanks Tyler, I thought MacK had at least something to do with Kingston Heath. Unfortunately, the day we played KH the 15th was out of play and the extra hole early in the round was used. We were able to walk across it and have a look though (and it surely looks awesome), but no shots.

Anyway, do you agree that NSW would not fit into a stereotype along with Cypress or Augusta from an appearance perspective?

I think that NSW is an example of many of MacKenzie's talents, not the least a great routing on what is a fairly tough piece of land... IMHGO it is not the equivalent of Cypress Point as a coastal golf property. Remember, the club only got the land because the Army couldn't see any long term use for it. In reality, St. Micheals next door is probably a better golf property.

After the war, Apperly did a great job of improving Mackenzie's routing, with the 6th and 2nd hole and in the 1st. Once they complete the work on the "field holes" (4th, 8th, 12 and 18) it will fix the only real weakness in the course and it would not surprise me if NSWGC makes the Top 25 in the world.

If anyone can enlighten me on the procedure, I will post some "artist's representations" of the redesign of the 18th hole here.

« **Reply #19 on:** September 19, 2006, 02:08:48 PM »

Quote from: JES II on September 19, 2006, 11:29:01 AM

What I think both Morrissett's are saying is that there is no point in arguing that Fisher's Island is not quite as good as Dornoch, and slightly better than TOC. They see a whole big group of courses that fit into potential "best in the world" conversations and Fisher's is one of those.

JES,

I don't even think they are saying that, although I agree with your premise. There is a difference between "best" and "favorite". They are saying favorite, not best.

« **Reply #20 on:** September 19, 2006, 10:15:39 PM »

Sean,

Maybe, and that would sit fine with me, thanks.

Jim

« **Reply #21 on:** September 20, 2006, 08:41:11 AM »

A very good question here is: would Raynor have built a better course at Cypress Point than MacKenzie did? It is for the most part his routing that the Dr. employed. Many here seem to feel that simplicity is the better style for New England; just why is that?

One constant between both architects seems to be that they cut bunkers "into the hillocks and not the hollows". Just because some are geometric and the other more free form, seems to really be a trivial matter.

« **Reply #22 on:** September 20, 2006, 09:08:25 AM »

Quote from: Pete Lavallee on September 20, 2006, 08:41:11 AM

One constant between both architects seems to be that they cut bunkers "into the hillocks and not the hollows". Just because some are geometric and the other more free form, seems to really be a trivial matter.

Even that is not 100% true. At Cypress Pt. and to a greater degree NSWGC the bunkers are lower down due to the prevailing wind conditions removing sand from the bunkers. In fact, many of the original Mackenzie bunker faces were revetted in 2001 to reduce sand loss and erosion. It would be nice to think that we could have bunkering like the Valley Club of Montecito, but that is not practical or long-lasting idea.

« **Reply #23 on:** September 20, 2006, 06:48:11 PM »

Anthony,

Are you saying it isn't windy at Cypress Point?

« **Reply #24 on:** September 20, 2006, 08:43:33 PM »

Quote from: Pete Lavallee on September 20, 2006, 06:48:11 PM

Anthony,

Are you saying it isn't windy at Cypress Point?

There's windy and there's windy... lived out in SF for about 4 years and probably visited Monterry Peninsula about 10-12 times in that time. Only once did I experience wind that would qualify as more than a "gentle breeze" at NSWGC.

I can't recall the holes, but there is at least some flash facing on the bunkers at Cypress Pt. It's all gone at NSWGC, if you look at the right hand side of these photos though, there is at least a couple of Mackenzie bunkers cut into the 'hillock' remaining.

P.S. Check those flags out, and I would not call this anything beyond a normal day at NSWGC. I have not had the honor of playing at Fishers Island, but having sailed in the Block Island races a couple of times. I would imagine that the wind is part of the challenge out there.

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