[Kelly Blake Moran]

"Imagine a scenario in which a family goes to the neighrborhood layout for a friendly game, shares a few laughs and gets some exercise...Shotmaking is an artform.  Courses fit into their native environment.  And a round can be played in three hours because the designs are not built around a power game.

That was the golf our great grandfathers tried to hand down to us.  Gradually, we have drifted from that model...
There is little chance of the old golf model coming back in the US, even though it still strives in Scotland...Why not? Because the affordable family scenario doesn't fit into today's course management company "business model." Of course, neither has the "upscale daily fee" model. Nor any other coporate management model."

THE FUTURE OF GOLF IN AMERICA
Geoff Shackleford

It appears no management company in the US is capable of delivering the type of course described in the first paragraph.  What management company is doing the best job in delivering the courses of our great grandfathers, or to say another way what management company trys to deliver the values in the first paragraph?  Put aside the architectural details, except to say what management companies best promotes the architects whose style best represents the courses of our great grandfathers.  What courses best represent the best values described in the first paragraph, and how and by whom are they managed and operated?

What Scottish courses best represent the model in the first paragraph, and how and by whom are they managed?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am not sure I know an example other than the local muni(in a small or medium size community) or a place like Pacific Grove. I do know that my favorite rounds of golf are in the environment described above.

[Mashie1]

C,mon.  When I build a course I want it to be in top 100 in the USA.  I want it to have sexy photos in all of the golf magazines.  I want a touring pro to have his name on the design.

After all, if I don't, nobody will think the golf course is much of anything at all.  And then nobody will play it.

I'm not sure if the problem is with the purveyors of the business of playing golf or the customers.

Seems like they deserve each other these days.

Now we really need to get that "Resistance to Scoring" rating category changed so those rankings are more fair in Golf Digest....sheesh!!

 

[JakaB]

"Imagine a scenario in which a family goes to the neighrborhood layout for a friendly game, shares a few laughs and gets some exercise...Shotmaking is an artform.  Courses fit into their native environment.  And a round can be played in three hours because the designs are not built around a power game.

Victoria National fits this mold perfectly....it really is not that big of a deal if you have the right size membership.   It is all about the people and very little to do with the land...You seem to forget the society our grandfathers handed down to us is what is missing....it's the people stupid.

[Mike Benham]

Not a local muni and not an 18-holer but the Cliffs course at the O Club was, I believe, designed with this in mind.

I have been treated to a Father's Day round (but it goes on my tab of course) with my two sons and my wife (her first foray on a real course and she chipped in for birdie on her first hole), we have had family tournaments on holidays on the 9-holer ...

[TEPaul]

What an interesting question! Unfortunately, I'm completely incapable of coming up with an answer and I wish it weren't so.

[Andy]

All sounds wonderful, but what bank would finance something that probably would not cash flow?  Let's be realistic here...in today's world, water, land costs, governmental red tape, plus a plethora or other issues essentially make this "dream" impossible.  Perhaps places that are subsidized by local governments can have these quaint little courses, but if they were privately held, they would be failed businesses and likely changed into a different use.  I wish I knew the answer to how we could revert the game back to a different era, but at this point, based upon costs, I just cannot see any future course being able to have this noble goal.  Sounds good, though.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have gone to Kiawah with my family for a number of years and I have always felt that they are geared toward family golf during the summer.  We didn't go last year but we are expecting to go back this summer and it is my understanding that they have done alot of work on Oak Point, which is not a power course and has quite a few holes with interesting shot values, etc.  It doesn't have the prestige of the other courses but really is a fun test and great for trying different types of shots. The important point is that my son who is 10, and has played since he was 6, has always enjoyed spending an afternoon with me on the course.  At Kiawah they have a separate set of kids tees and their own scorecard, except on the Ocean Course,  so they feel special about playing the game.  During the summer the fee for kids is half  the adult fee whenever you are playing, and this would include the morning times.  In the afternoon there is far less pressure as it is really hot and not too many people are playing.  Still, it is surprising how fast you can play when a kid can concentrate on his game rather than worrying about the people behind him.  

I do agree that it is hard to find a course today which is being built with the family in mind but economics make that just about impossible.  Most of those courses are munis and local governments just don't have the money to build golf courses.  I think that many courses are missing an opportunity where they could encourage family golf in the afternoons where families would feel they are welcome and come out on a regular basis.

[JakaB]

You people need to get your head out of the top 1000 courses in the country's ass...what about the other 15,000.  What about rural america...golf is great and healthy where I live.  At one time I was a member of three semi private courses that fit Geoff's description perfectly for a total of less than $1000/year...total.

I know that if I wasn't stuck in a dead end job in this god forsaken region I too would move to city and claim my rightful booty....but where were your grandfathers when my Irish ancestors got off of the boat...where was their cheap and quick golf.   It was in their toils of sweat and blood...exactly where it should be.  

Hey Tom Paul....when was the last time a Garden City member quit because it was too expensive...and how exactly doesn't your course fit his model.

[Mashie1]

Kiawah and Victoria National...

What percentage of the golfing public's can afford to play these tracks - 5% maybe? 2% maybe.

The thing about golf, in the old days, was that a good part of golf was a family function that was enjoyed with regularity on an affordable course.  But that was when golf was a way of life, not a commodity.

With high greens fees and $8.00 buckets of balls, many families will not be able to afford the game.  And, the difficulty of the game begs for the chance to play and practice often;, otherwise it becomes so frustrating that folks just assume do without the expense and heartache.

 

[JakaB]

Geoff brought our grandfathers model into this...and I can assure you that golf at Victoria National is more affordable and accessable as one of the top private venues in the country than the same course would have been for my great or just grand father.   I know people who work at Walmart that pay more for their kids cars than it costs to join Victoria National...how messed up is that.

[JohnV]

You people need to get your head out of the top 1000 courses in the country's ass...what about the other 15,000.  What about rural america...golf is great and healthy where I live.  At one time I was a member of three semi private courses that fit Geoff's description perfectly for a total of less than $1000/year...total.

Well said Barney.  There are over 200 public courses in Western PA alone.  Probably no more than 25-50 of which charge over $30 for greens fees (most charge less.)  The only part of Geoff's original comment that these don't meet is the part about 3 hour rounds (although I bet many of them do.)  And why is that, because they get a lot of play.  If the game is so screwed up today, why are they busy?

Sure, newly built courses charge more.  They have to, they probably just bought the land, had to go through all the hoops that are required today, brought in an architect who charged them an arm and a leg to design it and then hired a bunch of kids to greet me at the car.

As for private courses, I joined one that costs me $1500 to join and $1600 a year for all the golf course I can handle.  It is walkable (although most don't walk), it is fun and it can easily be played on a weekday afternoon in 3 hours and on weekend mornings it is always under 4.

[ForkaB]

What Scottish courses best represent the model in the first paragraph, and how and by whom are they managed?

Kelly

Virtually all courses in Scotland are owned and managed either by private clubs or by municipalities.  "Management" companies, such as Troon Golf, American Golf, etc. just do not exist.  With very few exceptions (e.g. Kingsbarns) they are non-profit organisations.  Costs are kept low partly because the land is paid for, but also because maintenance is minimalist and facilities are largely spartan, though homely.

Most village clubs (probably 80%+ of all courses) fit Geoff's model, although he is being hopelessly romantic in believing that "shotmaking is an artform" by most players at most of these places.  Scottish golfers are no better nor worse than they are in America.  Maybe a bit more polite, that is all.

I suspect that there are courses like this in America, once you get away from the big cities, as JakaB notes.  However, having recently spent a weekend at a country club in the middle of "flyover land" it is also evident that size and pretentiousness are also alive and well, even in the sticks.  This desire to make golf a central point in local "Society" rather than an integral part of the local society costs money, creates barriers and makes it hard to promote the game as something that is natural and fun.  Or at least, so it seems to me.

[Brian Phillips]

Rich,

I have to agree with you about the shotmaking comment.  The only shotmaking I saw the whole year in Scotland was Ronan the odd time.

Shotmaking....most golfers in Scotland are the same as me...just hoping to knock down the fairway.

How many families do you see playing golf in Scotland?  Not many..I don't think I ever saw the mum, dad and the two kids in tow scenario.....ever!!

I suspect that many women in Scotland are glad to get rid of their husbands.  Most of the taxi drivers, friends and even my hairdresser in Edinburgh NEVER played golf golf with the missus.  It was usually a bounce game or the usual sunday round with the mates.

The only one I know that plays golf with his woman is fatbaldydrummer....

Brian

[Tim_Weiman]

Kelly Blake Moran:

I won't speak to such courses in Scotland, but here in Cleveland the Metroparks system has two such courses near my home: Little Met and Mastic Woods. Both are nine hole courses, checking in at about 2,500 and 2,000 yards, respectively. Green fees vary by season and day of the week, but range from $6.00 to $9.00. Both courses are often quite full, often with young children and families having a game. They are also venues where you learn how difficult it is for people to hit a golf ball 100 yards and how rare it is to be able to hit a ball 200 yards or to control shot dispersion.

A few years back I played Little Met with a gentleman in his forties who had taken up the game about a year before. By the time we reached the 7th hole I could see he was really enjoying himself and I mentioned this to him.

I went on to say "yes, golf is really fun.....especially when you get to play a good course".

But this man quickly rejected that idea, saying "I've already done that and don't ever want to do it again".

When I asked why, he replied: "because there was this hole where you had to hit a ball about one hundred yards over water.......I never want to do that again".

Ok. I guess playing #8 at Pebble Beach will never be of interest to him!

[Kelly Blake Moran]

What Scottish courses best represent the model in the first paragraph, and how and by whom are they managed?

Kelly

Virtually all courses in Scotland are owned and managed either by private clubs or by municipalities.  "Management" companies, such as Troon Golf, American Golf, etc. just do not exist.  With very few exceptions (e.g. Kingsbarns) they are non-profit organisations.  Costs are kept low partly because the land is paid for, but also because maintenance is minimalist and facilities are largely spartan, though homely.

Most village clubs (probably 80%+ of all courses) fit Geoff's model, although he is being hopelessly romantic in believing that "shotmaking is an artform" by most players at most of these places.  Scottish golfers are no better nor worse than they are in America.  Maybe a bit more polite, that is all.

Rich,

Thanks for answering the question.  My home course is private, which does not mean it should be excluded by Geoff's excerpt I quoted.  It is owned by an individual, or family, and is privately managed.  I assume this requires the owner to be more involved through regular meetings with the manager.  The annual fees for children do not begin until 14 I believe, which may indicate kids are not welcome until that age, although not stated. Based upon this management arrangement I think the owner is more invovled in property upgrades.  I know pressure as been exerted upon him to upgrade certain features on the course and the club house.  

Anyone else?

Tim,

How well are the course managed?  Do you know much about the way the system operates?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Well said Barney.  There are over 200 public courses in Western PA alone.  Probably no more than 25-50 of which charge over $30 for greens fees (most charge less.)  The only part of Geoff's original comment that these don't meet is the part about 3 hour rounds (although I bet many of them do.)  And why is that, because they get a lot of play.  If the game is so screwed up today, why are they busy?


As for private courses, I joined one that costs me $1500 to join and $1600 a year for all the golf course I can handle.  It is walkable (although most don't walk), it is fun and it can easily be played on a weekday afternoon in 3 hours and on weekend mornings it is always under 4.

JohnV,

Who manages your course?  Who manages the courses in your area?  Do you know much about how any of these operate?  

[Carlyle Rood]

"Imagine a scenario in which a family goes to the neighrborhood layout for a friendly game, shares a few laughs and gets some exercise...Shotmaking is an artform.  Courses fit into their native environment.  And a round can be played in three hours because the designs are not built around a power game." --Geoff Shackleford, The Future of Golf in America

I grew up on a course where I regularly experienced the golf Geoff described above.  This course also hosted a PGA event annually.  This just isn't one of his strongest arguments.

Carlyle

P.S. I am actively trying to acquire this book, and looking forward to reading it.

[JohnV]

My course is managed by a family who, along with the members owns it.  

Most of the public courses in our area are privately owned by individuals or small groups or they are municipally owned.  These courses are the kind of courses that families go to.  They don't go to the high-priced CC-FADs.  There are probably only 5-10 of those in the area anyway.

I know quite a bit about how they operate since my job is to convince them to join the WPGA and to service their needs once they have joined.  Many are run on low budgets with minimal staff, but they still work hard to meet the needs of their customers by providing a fun experience that all ages can afford and enjoy.  Some are more succesful than others at providing that good service and environment.

[A_Clay_Man]

JohnV- Sounds like Pitt isn't too bad? Re your last comment: What would you say the difference is between the two operations yoy describe above? Is it attitude?

[Big B]

As for private courses, I joined one that costs me $1500 to join and $1600 a year for all the golf course I can handle.  It is walkable (although most don't walk), it is fun and it can easily be played on a weekday afternoon in 3 hours and on weekend mornings it is always under 4.


Kelley...

Which club are you referring to as I'm looking for a private one to join?  Any information is helpful!

Thanks,
Big B

[Larry_Keltto]

Great topic.

I live in a town of 25,000 people, located about one hour south of the Twin Cities.

Our community has four golf options: a private country club, a privately owned daily fee course, a muni, and a 9-hole par 3.

Our boys' and girls' high school teams consistently are ranked in the top 10 in the state, and most people in town believe it's because of the par 3 course.

Parents begin bringing their children to the par 3 at a very young age; on a Saturday afternoon, it's very common to see more than half the groups on the course made up of children under the age of 10 with their parents. When the kids are a little older, many spend the entire day at the par 3 and the accompanying practice range.

When the kids hit their pre-teen and/or teen years, they graduate to the other courses in town.

My understanding is that the par 3 is the only course in town that makes a significant profit. Maintenance is minimal, the land is paid for, and the fees are low (about $5 per round and $15 per day -- $200 a year for unlimited golf).

Somehow, it works, and I consider myself lucky to live in a community where the children have a course they feel they own.

When we drive past the par 3, my 3-year-old and 6-year-old daughters say, "There's our golf course."

At a completely different level of quality and -- I'm assuming -- cost, the best course I've ever seen for juniors is the Coldra Woods course (par 59) at Celtic Manor. If that had been my course as a 10-year-old, I'd have been in heaven.

[JakaB]

Great topic...hell, it's a great game and don't let the people at cocktail parties in LA and New York tell you any different....I knew I would love Geoff's book.

[RJ_Daley]

My metro area of Green Bay and Fox Valley has a couple of good membership deals.  First, my home course is a muni, with a brand new full service restaurant, pro shop - clubhouse, and considered among top 5-10 publics in our state, design wise.  While a resident round is going up to $28, A membership allowing unlimitted golf is $1100 single.  But, they have a fantastic deal for juniors, which is not hardly taken advantage of.  Unlimitted junior golf for $175 a summer.  The only hook is an unlimitted Mom and Dad is 2200 with no extra break or discount for two.  But, the kids added on to one golfing parent is extraordinary, I think.  The kicker is, I don't know of more than 3-4 people that have their kids signed for this.  I'll bet there aren't a dozen total that I don't know.  

There is another semi-private in our area that has a family membership, and something like a $1000 initiation of stock purchase for only about $1000 a year and it is a cute and worthy course of about 6400 from the tips.  They charge the public about $25 a round otherwise.  I'm not even going to go into the Wild Horse deal for resident membership.

[JakaB]

RJ,

What kind of opportunities did your great or grandfather have compared to the above....I take it you were blue of badge and not of blood.

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