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Matt_Ward

The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« on: February 06, 2004, 03:37:56 PM »
Played the new Hokuli'a Course yesterday on the Big Island designed by Jack Nicklaus for Lyle Anderson. The facility is located just south of Kona and is on 1,500 acres of land that abuts the Pacific Ocean.

Truly a superb site as nearly every hole has clear vistas of the Pacific Ocean. It totally epitomizes the link between high octane design and the native location of the Big Island.

The skinny on the course is ... 7,335 yards -- 76.1 Slope and 147 Slope from the tips.

Jack gives the player plenty of room off the tee but the greens are neatly defended and angled to force the player to reach certain preferred landing zones.

I also believe the start of the course is first rate with two solid par-4's at the outset -- 448 yards and 482 yards. Both play downhill but you must hit the tee ball in the right position before attempting a go at the flag.

There is still litigation going on with the site concerning the massive development that will likely take place if things go that direction. There are also plans for a second 18 further up the hill from the present site.

Like what de did at Outlaw Hokuli'a is truly a well done layout that allows the high and low handicap player to play without making the course impossible or simply one that is dumb down.

I have to say given the courses I have played in the Islands it is by far the best of the lot and that includes Mauna Kea.

For those coming to the Big Island it's a definite place to play if you can get on IMHO.

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THuckaby2

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2004, 03:51:45 PM »
Matt:

There are up tees though, right?  7335/76.1/147 can't be fun for more than a tiny minority of golfers.. that is, the long, skilled and masochistic.... Damn I'd be more impressed by 76.1/125, to be honest.  But I'm finding that might be impossible.

As for the rest, sounds like a hell of a great course.  But please explain further WHY it is a challenge for the low 'capper and not impossible for the high capper... no offense but those numbers say impossible to me.  Of course no way the high 'capper should ever play those tees, so set me straight and tell me there's a set that goes something like 6600/71.0/120 or something like that.

TH
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Mike_Cirba

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2004, 03:54:56 PM »
Matt;

Better than Kapalua Plantation, as well?

I've never been to the islands (ahem..you lucky pr*ck!), so I'm asking by way of indirect comparison.
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THuckaby2

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2004, 03:57:16 PM »
Mike:

There's this thing called a "honeymoon".  Hawaii seems to be a good place for such things.  Golf can and should be fit in.

I'm just here to help ya, bud.

 ;D ;D ;D

TH

ps - stopcirbaswedding.com seems to be getting a LOT of hits from women world-wide...
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Mike_Cirba

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2004, 04:00:02 PM »
Ahh...Tom...

Thanks for the idea!!  

Always thinking, aren't you young man?  ;D

As far as the site, their efforts are futile.  I've got me a good one and life is happy.  

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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2004, 04:03:00 PM »
Mike -
Tom's right, I'm sure you're fiance will prefer it to Mullen, NE. Plus, last I heard construction on "Ben's Honeymoon Suite" isn't finished.
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THuckaby2

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2004, 04:06:02 PM »
Well, it is fun to live vicariously.

And as for that site, you know what hell hath no fury like.  I'm just praying for your sake that the scorned don't team up.

 ;D ;D ;D

Now back to golf... I'm on this slope/rating kick so I looked up Kapalua Plantation and it surprised me... I have the general idea that C&C courses would do very well in this, but KP doesn't.... regular tees are par 73/6547/71.9/135.  That's l too high of a slope to make this perfect, and really the rating is too low (1.1 under the par ain't good for the sticks)... from the champ tees the rating is right - 75.2 on 7263 yards, but the slope goes to 142 so that's too brutal for the bogey....

Just rambling.  Too bad Sand Hills has no ratings... it might do well here, although I'd guess slope would be pretty high there also...

TH
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2004, 04:35:22 PM »
Quote from: Matt_Ward on February 06, 2004, 03:37:56 PM
I have to say given the courses I have played in the Islands it is by far the best of the lot and that includes Mauna Kea.

You don't have to apologize one bit for Mauna Kea but don't get me started.  IMHO Mauna Kea barely ranks in the top 10 for Hawaii.

As for Hokuli'a, whats the status on the lawsuits and the grading they apparently did without permits?  I had heard (from a source that doesn't know anything) that they where going to be forced to redo a number of holes.  Also I heard  homesales are going well?
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JWL

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Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2004, 05:32:20 PM »
Joel

Anytime I read somewhere information that I know is not quite correct, I usually try to set the record straight.   With that in mind, let me positively assure you that no area was graded that was not permitted.  Everyone involved with the project was fastidious in adhering to the buffers setbacks established by the authorities.  It isn't true that several holes are going to be redone.   There may some changes made to the 16th green and a cart path behind #2 green, but that is all that I am presently aware of.
Unfortunately in Hawaii, the archaelogical rules often change during the construction process.
The area of concern at Hokulia is what is called a "step stone trail" on the 16th hole.    When the hole was originally designed, let's just say that, the "trail" was not defined.   As the grading process unfolded, the "trail", which is about a 2' foot wide strip of irregular stones that apparently were put in place to identify the path that the spirits would take at night to visit buried ancestors.   I could go into more detail, but suffice it to say, the trail became difficult to work with in the middle of the fairway on a Par 5, and the "trail" to on a new importance.   The stones had to be returned to their original grade and arrangement, so, stone by stone, they were removed, tagged, the ground graded back to orginal, and replaced.   The golf hole was then finished avoiding the "trail".
There is ongoing litigation, but it has nothing to do with the golf course or the grading anywhere on the course.
This was an extremely difficult site to work, with the enormous amount of archaelogical finds found throughout the site.   Many were determined "after" construction had commenced, so holes were being "worked" throughout the construction process.
I am sure that some changes will take place in the future, but nothing that involves making wholesale hole changes.  I hope this gives some clarity to what is transpiring with the Hokulia situation.
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pacgd

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2004, 06:06:40 PM »
A lot of credit should go to Jack Nicklaus and Jim Lipe for the design of Hokulia.  I believe that any one who has the chance to play this course from this group would be very favorably impressed.  

Mike Cirba
Whether it's better than the Plantation Course at Kapalua or not is subject to personal taste, but I will say that all of the architectural elements necessary for great golf are present at Hokulia.  

Kapalua Plantation was designed by C&C with the wind in mind as represented by its massive greens and features.  Hokulia, on the other hand, where the wind is much less a factor, enjoys the same grand scale and width as the Plantation, but was designed by Nicklaus with a wide variety of bunkering patterns and green shapes/sizes/contours, creating all kinds of different angles, for its strategic challenge.  At the short 300-yard par-four 12th, for instance, there is a small (3,500 sf +/-) sliver of a green falling away right to left from a deep greenside bunker suggestive of #10 at Riviera; the moderate length par-4 17th is played to a mid-size Redan green that angles diagonally from high front right to low back left behind a set of flowing bunkers front left; and the long par-3 8th plays to a huge 12,000 s.f. + green with a lot of internal heave and ho.  Then there's the short par-5 9th, whose tossing and turning fairway, leads to a table top green fronted by two spectacles bunkers.  The twist is the back half of this green falls 6 feet or so in the rear to a hidden natural punchbowl.  You can play this hole 18 times, 18 different ways, and score anywhere from 3 to 7, depending on your creativity and shotmaking.

Tom Huckaby

From the tips, you're right, Hokulia is quite a test.  Interestingly, however, I was told that Lyle Anderson asked Nicklaus to make sure that it was fun and playable for everybody from the forward tees, reasoning that vacationers coming to Hawaii didn't want to get beat up.  As a result, one can play the forward tees armed only with a putter and finish 18 holes with no forced carries and the same ball he/she started with.

BTW:  the club's Pavilion is the Hawaiian answer to Ben's Porch.  Simple and unpretentious, it's perfect.  Sucking a mai tai on the deck overlooking the Pacific Ocean and watching the sun set is as good as it gets.  And that's the same way I felt in Mullen, Nebraska.    
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2004, 06:54:09 PM »
Steve,
What (in your personal taste) did you prefer - Hokuli'a or Kapalua?

Best,
Ben
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2004, 08:17:13 PM »
Quote from: JWL on February 06, 2004, 05:32:20 PM
Unfortunately in Hawaii, the archaelogical rules often change during the construction process.

Jim:
Thanks for the update.  I knew my source was unclear on what was happening and your explanation makes sense.  I'm looking forward to playing the course as I have heard good things about it.

I like your diplomatic view on Hawaiian rules and laws :)
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pacgd

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2004, 11:34:54 PM »
Ben:

Both courses are really good.  On one hand, I really like the overall concept of Kapalua Plantation, e.g., the big scale, the integration of the ground game into all aspects of the strategy, the natural bunker "look" that C&C and the boys employed.

Having said that, Nicklaus got a better site at Hokulia and that's what makes it the better of the two, in my opinion.  (1) Less wind = the ability to vary things more; (2) the Hokulia site is more "shelved" as it comes down the hill toward the ocean = less need for uphill and downhill holes; allowing Nicklaus to run some holes parallel to the ocean in both directions as well as running holes down and up, and making it much easier to walk; and (3)  the Hokulia site runs down to the water (there is a 250 foot conservation buffer along the ocean) = so you get "ocean holes" where you can hear and feel the surf.

Finally, as beautiful as Kapalua is, the Hokulia site is simply more visually arresting, so that when you factor in all of the above, the result is simply more memorable and distinct golf holes.  And, that's ultimately Hokulia's strongest point: the mental replay is so obvious that you will remember each and every hole, as much any other course anywhere in the world, after only one round.

Kapalua Plantation does have a better finish, however.  I really like how #17 and #18 plunge downhill to the finish, with 17 a stern par-4 and 18 a gambler's delight.  Nicklaus brings Hokulia to the ocean for holes 15-17, which forces him to play 18 up the hill back to the clubhouse.  Added with the archeological issues limiting what could be done with 18, the result is a closing hole more suspect as at Cypress Point, than classic as at Pebble.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2004, 11:52:05 PM by pacgd »
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DMoriarty

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2004, 09:22:05 AM »
". . . on 1500 acres of land . . .."   That's a lot of land.  I dont suppose it is walkable?
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Matt_Ward

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2004, 08:28:59 PM »
Huck:

Nicklaus provides generous corridors for the player to play -- even the higher handicap player. The demands intensify as you begin to add yardage because then you must hit for both power and placement.

The green dimension s are also unique as you the par-5 9th features a superb cool fall away if you're second shot has a bit too much pace to stop. How much of a fall-off -- try about 8-10 feet!!!!

Let it not be said that Jack and his team can't design unique and challenging greens!

Mike C:

I have not played Kapalua thus far but will by Monday. I'll report back afterwards to see how they both fare when compared.

David M:

You can walk Hokuli'a provided one is not carrying beer gut around your midsection! Not directed at you -- of course!

Let me also say this about Hokuli'a -- the scenery -- both internal and external to the site are quite dynamic and truly merit the use of the word spectacular.

Let me also highlight that the shotmaking demands are quite varied and at no time does one face all-or-nothing type shotmaking. Jack does provide alternate routes and a quick point about the par-5 16th -- yes, there is a stone path that runs parallel to the line of play -- but it's quite a small issue provided you play the hole in a correct fashion. The path is only about 3 feet wide and really is not a major intrusion. I also enjoyed the nature of the green site at the hole as it sits slightly below the fairway grade and is neatly banked on the right side.

The finishing hole is also quite good -- it plays at most 383 yards but all uphill. The fairway is angled from left-to-right and the further right you go the greater the carry you must have to avoid a series of bunkers on that side.

Hokuli'a and Outlaw (Scottsdale, AZ) constitute IMHO two first rate designs by Nicklaus. They have alternate routes of attack and make it a point to accomodate the high and low handicap player. Good shotmaking is always the rule to succeed and foolish plays are simply handled in a proper and most certain fashion.
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ChipOat

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Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2004, 09:13:39 PM »
Matt et al:

Hokuli'a sounds like Manele Bay on Lanai (also Nicklaus) in terms of scenery and at least equal, if not better, as a golf course.

Anybody played both or spoken with someone who has?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2004, 09:14:21 PM by chipoat »
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Matt_Ward

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2004, 09:15:07 PM »
Chip:

I can't speak to Manele Bay -- I would to get over there during my time on the Islands -- I will say this though -- Hokuli'a is far beyond just a wonderful picture -- it contains a vast array of shotmaking options and clearly goes beyond the "old" Nicklaus design style.
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ChipOat

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Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2004, 09:23:08 PM »
Matt:

Ask around during the rest of your trip if you think of it.  Most folks in the golf business for more than 2-3 years out there have played therm all.
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Matt_Ward

Re:The New Nicklaus Course at Hokuli'a
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2004, 08:59:27 PM »
chip:

The feeling I got from others was that Hokuli'a and Nanea are likely the two best courses on the Big Island. It will be interesting to see what someone says about Nanea since I was not able to either play or walk the grounds this time around.

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