Craig,
I'm sending you this in Adobe Acrobat in email--full size, better quality and just because you deserve it.

Tommy,

You are the MAN! Merry Christmas Emperor. Lido will rise.

Tommy,

Interesting how NGLA seems to be the center of his architectural universe.

Thanks for that write-up. That golf course sure doesn't look or sound to me like something that had values that somehow repressed the Golden Age of golf architecture for a very long time. And if that golf course was something that represented Man's ultimate arrogance because it was almost wholly created by the hand of man (Macdonald/Raynor) then all I can say is long live Man's ultimate arrogance in golf course architecture!! And I cannot help but believe that Max Behr would've agreed!

Tom-

I agree whole heartedly.  I wish that someone would bankroll the recreation/cloning of The LIDO.  Perhaps in the Sand Hills area but better still if someone could get some waterfront property. What a tribute to MacDonald that would be.  He was certainly a visionary beyond what I had even imagined previously.  

Tommy- Thank you for those articles. I had read a bit about LIDO from George's book, Scotland's Gift, Geoff's books, Dan Wexler's book and other books such as The MGA book and Bill Quirin's America's Linksland but this contemporary account really hits home. It was the first example within the golfing community of what man, science, society can accomplish. I believe that Jacob Bronowski (author of "The ascent of man" among other great books) would have approved.  

Sean:

I did notice Macdonald mentioned Piping Rock's 17th twice, once as the "short it is and once when he must have meant to say the 12th which is Piping's "alps". It was probably a typo.

SPDB,

I noticed the Piping Rock error, and would agree with the typo, and that CBM's words have to be filtered.

Tommy -

I'm hoping you have a christmas, free and clear of any insults. All things pure (e.g. golf architecture) should be untethered by pejoratives.

I gave up on the last thread when it turned into yet another Tom M./Pat M. pissing match, so if this thread is in response to that, my apologies for hijacking it. But you have to understand that speculation on a course about which there is very little to be had in the way of primary resources is bound to be revisionist. But an architect's own prospective account of the course isn't going to change that reality much.

What are you so upset about, and why fly off the handle at me, especially on X-mas eve?

Pat/Tom - Of course I knew it was a typo, hence the subsequent comments and smileys.

It seems like everybody here is taking a course about which they know nothing, a little bit too seriously.

Pat Mucci asked;

"In addition, could you cite for me where MacDonald said that the Redan at NGLA was "absolutely natural"?"

Sure Pat, no problem at all. In my post #113 on the "Jumping the shark" thread I quoted Macdonald on his NGLA Redan;

"Strange as it may seem, we had but to look back and find a perfect Redan which was absolutely natural."
(C.B. Macdonald "Scotland's Gift Golf" page 188)

And you're accusing me of not reading or understanding posts?? If that's not bad enough you actually COPIED that quote of Macdonald's from my post #113 and put it in your post #114 and apparently you STILL didn't read it, notice it  or understand it!

You're amazing Pat. Would it help you to notice what Macdonald said about his own Redan if I hung it in lights in Times Square on New Year's Eve???  

Pat -
Most greensites are "heavily manufactured," what makes you think NGLA is so special in that regard? The push up on a green-end doesn't prevent the entire hole from being "natural"

p.s. merry christmas

The Lido GC was a 1917 project and The Creek was 1925. How do you reconcile the construction and engineering lessons that Macdonald and Raynor must have learned in executing the tremendous design/engineering job required at Lido (especially the reclaiming of land) with the many problems of the water holes at the later-built Creek?  

It would seem that the lessons learned in creating Lido should've spared the design problems at The Creek and saved many tens of thousands of dollars that were required to fix the course in the later 1920s.  There was evidently so much friction between the club and Macdonald, a founding member, that he eventually resigned from the board and maybe the club.

It would've made a better story if Macdonald learned from his mistakes at The Creek and then went on to conquer nature so to speak at a later date with Lido.

I don't see the building of Lido as a negative; a slap in the face of nature.  Macdonald was building something his clients wanted on a site of their selection.  He was free not to take on the commission.  Given that he did, I am sure he was challenged by the project and took it on with the intention of creating something special.  I applaud his efforts both in design and construction.

William Flynn built the Indian Creek CC (1930) on top of a man-made island built to 2' above sea level in Miami, FL.  The entire golf course, some of it nearly 35' above sea level, was added on according to Flynn's design and built by Toomey and Flynn Construction.  By the look of the land, most would have a difficult time figuring out that it is not a natural land formation, a divergence from Macdonald's preference.  I think this was a worthwhile effort and gave the residents and members exactly what they wanted and continues to do so 70 years later.

I regret the happenings, nefarious or otherwise that contributed to the demise of Lido.  Thanks to some great research by George, Craig, Tommy, and others we can appreciate this NLE project while short of being there.

Gotta get ready for holiday dinner tonight.  Merry Christmas to all.

Two things: One, by pumping the lagoon wasn't he just trying to hurry up nature by forming his own "linksland"?

Two, In the article he referenced the 3 shotter that could be played to 100 yard long 30 yard wide stip of fair green, to the right, changing par to a two shotter. This cavalier attitude towards the value of par is a good thing,considering present circumstances.

SPDB,

Pat -
Most greensites are "heavily manufactured,"

Would you explain how the greensites at Garden City Golf Club are "heavily manufactured" ?

what makes you think NGLA is so special in that regard?
The push up on a green-end doesn't prevent the entire hole from being "natural"

Sure it does, if a component of a hole, a vital component is artificial, then the ENTIRE hole can't be natural.  That's just common sense.

Categorizing the greens at NGLA as push-up greens reflects a total lack of understanding with respect to the construction and form of the greens at NGLA.

Do you think the tees at NGLA are natural, or heavily constructed ?  Let's start with the first hole and go through all 18.

I'd stick to a subject where you have a reasonable degree of knowledge and familiarity.  You're out of your league on this one.

p.s. merry christmas