[The Spirit Of Ran]

The Ground Game is a much revered formula with many of us on this Golf Club Atlas. (i.e. The entire foundation of the TE Paul Maintenance-type "Meld." is based off of this type of play)

What five holes in Golf are your favorite examples of why the Ground Game is such a positive for the Game?

[Brian_Gracely]

I've never met TEPaul, but have seen some of his thoughts on this site over the last year.  I'm not sure I'd agree with the statement, "The entire foundation of the TEPaul Maintenance-type "Meld." is based off of this type of play."  I believe TEPaul's interest in the Maintenance Meld is about opinions and enjoyment of the game.  

So there are two pieces to this:
a) the course layout must actually allow multiple options to get the ball close the hole and eventually in the hole.  By air or by ground offers those types of options
b) if the course satisfies "a", then the maintenance of the course should be kept such that it can continue to offer those options because it affords the greatest variety of skill-level and enjoyment of the game.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Two faves of mine are some I played fairly recently and both are on downhill approaches and/or fallaway greens.

#16 at Stonewall ("South"), with the downhill approach a great landing area to bounce onto the green.

#15 at Inniscrone is just incredible, with the downhill approach to a fallaway green, where trying to get it just right is half the fun of playing.

[Scott_Burroughs]

#10 Lehigh

yes, another great hole!  Downhill approach (over the PN bunker) to a fallaway green.  SE PA is doing very well so far.

[Joe Hancock]

#5 and #16 at Kingsley Club....

Both par 3's, both need to be played short or to the side of the green and let the earth work for you.

#5 green is a punchbowl, #16 a redan....

Joe

[A_Clay_Man]

#14 at Pacific Grove-Slightly Downhill with knolls on both sides 30-40 short of the green. On a short 2 shotter an adept touch is often required but won't guarantee boo. The make-up of the turf between these knolls is a key factor in the decision to play the ground.

#3 Wild Horse Gothenburg, Ne. With two centerline nasties gaurding the approach to this par 5 the decision on which way the land will throw your ball is indeterminant save for the influence you put on it.

#3 Sand Hills. This one shotter has to be one of the most exciting ground game shots on the planet. Aim left and behold your attention is fixed for a good long time as your ball finally comes to rest.

#10 Black Mesa This dwnhill two shotter has a turbo boost approx 60-70 yards short of the green which can be used effectively to run up onto the left side shelf of this diabolically designed green within a green.

#1-18 at TSN Just kidding but I swear the option to play the ground at Talking stick seemed everywhere.

[Tom_Doak]

The hole I chose to write up for Paul Daley's newest book was the 2nd on the Old Course at St. Andrews, one of the ultimate ground game holes and one which has stood the test of time as good as any ... if you want to fly the ball in there you have to take the risk of a pinball bounce.

Foxy at Dornoch and the ninth at Westward Ho! are two others which come prominently to mind.

[Doug Wright]

Adam,

It's #3 at Sand Hills of which you speak. How soon you forget... I'm kinda partial to #7 at Sand Hills for ground game challenge and fun.

I haven't played it, but I sure enjoyed watching the ground games around the greens at Oakmont during the US Amateur.

Just about anywhere in Scotland and many places in Ireland.

Greensides @ Pinehurst #2.

Best,  

[A_Clay_Man]

Thanx doug- Yes it's only been one year, two months, 12 days and 14 hours since walking off that magical place. But, it has been one year, two months 12 days and 22 hours since Paul hit that shot, so you can see how I forgot. Sorry

There were ground game options all over TRC and Black Mesa.

[TEPaul]

Probably two of the best or certainly most intense ground game holes I'm aware of are the 1st and 10th of Oakmont. When that course is in it's real tournament set-up (which it is a lot of the time) playing the ball at those greens basically takes huge thought and execution and probably what might be considered a ground game surgeon's touch.

If Ben Hogan thought so in the US Open there (which he won) that sure is good enough for me because there ain't anybody anywhere who can deny that Ben Hogan sure did have the "thought" and he sure did have the "touch"!

[TEPaul]

Here's a hole that is just super fantastic to play a ground game approach shot. It's got everything going to promote it--the topography, the contours, the design of the green;

Alwoodley's #10!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

How could you forget the 8th hole at Hidden Creek ?

You're losing it, which is a compliment, because it implies that you once had it, which is doubtful  

[ed_getka]

#8 Sand Hills (last time I was there a GCA'er played a pitch from the back left of the green, approx. 10 o' clock postion, that went all the way around the clock and into the fronting bunker down at the 6 o'clock position)

#16 Kingsley Club

Lost Dunes has a few holes that fit the bill.

#7 Plainfield with the fall away green.

Rustic Canyon has many to choose from, especially #2, #5, #9, #10, #12, #13.

Adam makes a great call with #14 at Pacific Grove.

[Gary_Smith]

I've never met TEPaul, but have seen some of his thoughts on this site over the last year.  I'm not sure I'd agree with the statement, "The entire foundation of the TEPaul Maintenance-type "Meld." is based off of this type of play."  I believe TEPaul's interest in the Maintenance Meld is about opinions and enjoyment of the game.  

So there are two pieces to this:
a) the course layout must actually allow multiple options to get the ball close the hole and eventually in the hole.  By air or by ground offers those types of options
b) if the course satisfies "a", then the maintenance of the course should be kept such that it can continue to offer those options because it affords the greatest variety of skill-level and enjoyment of the game.

Anyways, since we like to make lists, here goes (in no order):

1 - 17 at St.Andrews (Old)
2 - 13 at Pine Valley
3 - 9/14/18 at Shinnecock
4 - 12 at Oakmont
5 - 14 at Royal Dornoch

Brian,

Would you mind clarifying why Shinny #9 fits the ground game? As I recall from the '95 Open setup, it was a second shot carry all the way over the grassy embankment fronting the green.

[Brian_Gracely]

Gary,

Oops...typo.  You're right bout #9 at Shinnecock.  Maybe I was subconsciously thinking about the "original ground game", before sheep and farmers created fairways as they looked for their balls.

[klangone]

#7 at Myopia and #11 Charles River would definitely be in the top 5.......

[Adam_Messix]

These are the ones that come to mind:

#14 at Shinnecock Hills
#10 & 15 at Garden City
#1, 10, & 15 at Oakmont
#2 at Chester River
#6 at Stonewall I

[ian]

5 Solid Canadian Examples from Five very different architects.

1. 3rd at Lookout Point (Travis)

Features a green running away from you that is 25 feet wide and 100 feet long; and on a 30 degree diagonal to the right. The hill leading in falls towrds the gren and to the right at about 9% cross-slope. The fall off behind the green is 30 feet straight down.

2. 2nd at Kawartha Lakes (Thompson)

Features a fairway running downward (and to the left) into a two tiered green. The higher tier is in the front and the lower tier is in the back (3 feet lower). The green also banks fairly strongly left with wonderful flash ups from which you can steer the ball in. The prudent shot is a run in for almost all approaches.

3. 4th at Toronto Golf (Colt)

Toronto's only true Redan style hole, requires extreme precision to get the correct bounce in. Balls flown to the green are discarded for their arrogance.

4. 9th at Weston (Park Jr.)

Like the 18th at Weston, the hole falls downhill from tee through the back of the green. The 9th has a "run-in slope" about 10 yards short of the green, that guarantees a green in regulation. Hit short and you finish short in a slight swale. Fly to close to the greent and the ball is kicked hard, resulting with rolling through the green. The wonderful thing is that you can use different parts of the entry slope to access different corners of the green, due to its increasing bank the higher you play.

5. 6th at the National (Fazio-74')

Short five with a small turtle back green. A large roll is place front centre on the direct line into the green. Flop shots have to be very precise because many of the rolls, the front in particular, have a tendency to knock the ball off to the side. The bump is fairly wide which sets up well for a long bump and run, which takes out all the crazy bounces of a ball flown in.

[Thomas_Brown]

I'll just offer 2 short par 4's that come to mind.
Both are very difficult pitches:
 #18 TOC
 #7 RCD

My 2 cents - How Foxy at Dornoch is a ground game rep. puzzles me.  To me - that hole is impossible - thru the air or even worse trying to get the ball on that green against that slope on the right.

Tom

[ForkaB]

Tom

I sort of agree with you re: Foxy.  Firstly, you cannot effectively play the ground game off the tee.  The numerous  bumps and humps in the fairway make a slinging hook tee shot far too risky.  Secondly, because of the interfering dune lines, unless you hit your drive to the left hand slot, you have to play the aerial game on your second shot (or lay up left).   Thirdly, even if you do hit the ball left and long, the higher percentage shot is the aerial one, if you have it in your bag (I will grant that the ground game is a very robust option from that place, though).  However, where the ground game does really come into play on the hole is on the 3rd shot.  I would estimate that the GIR on the hole for elite golfers is no more than 10-15%.  For players who are not a plus handicap it is probably less than 5%.  So, the hole creates a lot of chances to practice up and downs!  And, due the the great green siting, and the wild internal contours, and that great gnarly hump you mention that guards the right middle of the green, one's imagination can run wild.  In this circumstance, the percentage play is the ground game, usually the putter.  However, if you want to get it close, the lob wedge off the hardpan fairway is still the weapon of choice.

PS--as I've said on another thread, I think that the 4th is the best "ground game" hole at Dornoch (or anywhere else I have seen, for that matter).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

Gary,

Oops...typo.  You're right bout #9 at Shinnecock.  Maybe I was subconsciously thinking about the "original ground game", before sheep and farmers created fairways as they looked for their balls.

Then again, maybe you were thinking about # 4 at Pine Valley, due to the similarity in the hills.  

[bstark]

   I would say #5  at Friars Head fits the bill as an excellent ground game hole. Short par 4 with a long fairway bunker bisecting the hole, slightly downhill. The green is a masterpiece with a knob in the front center that makes any pin placement in the back half a real bear. You could play that hole  a thousand times and play it a thousand ways, a really "under the radar" hole.

[archie_struthers]

Pat,

Can't agree with you about the 8th at Hidden Creek for multiple reasons, primarily because you can't witness the result and enjoy or despair, I like #10 better.

Also, how about #10 at Sandhills?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Archie,

You have some excellent ground game holes at Twisted Dune.  My faves were the downhill approaches to fallaway greens on #9 and #15.

[John Morrissett]

I'll nominate the Morrissett brothers' beloved Plantation Course at Kapalua for the best ground game course built since The Old Course.  Some favorite shots:

The approach to the 5th, letting the ball bounce in from the left.

The tee shot or second to the 6th where . . . well, a lot can happen!

The approch to the 7th, where you feel it is impossible for the ball to finish short of the hole, no matter which club you use.

The tee shot on the 12th (downwind), where because of the left to right tilt of the fairway you need to land your tee shot dangerously close to the tall (lost ball) grass to the left.  Incredibly tempting.

The approach (whether from 250 or 15) to the 18th, as it is similar to a Redan on an enormous scale with a spectacular backdrop.  I have seen precious few players (excluding the Tour players!) hit the ball within 15 feet of the hole from 2 - 50 yards short of this green.  I've seen several putt from just a few yards short into a bunker.

I'll also second the nominations of both 8 and 10 at Hidden Creek as well as 15 at Inniscrone and mention the 3rd and 13th at Machrihanish, 4th at Royal Worlington, 3rd at The Machrie, 7th at Somerset Hills, 16th at North Berwick, and the 1st and 7th at Silloth-on-Solway, where downwind you want the ball just to trickle over the hill down to the green -- extremely fun.

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