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DMoriarty

Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« on: December 10, 2003, 09:41:27 PM »
In a recent thread, Shivas suggested we build more courses like NGLA.  While I usually am pretty suspect of Shivas' suggestions (what was it, the flyer strip?) I wholeheartedly agree with this one.  Others dont.  

In response to Shivas' suggestion, David Wigler said:
Why not build another NGLA?  Because you could not sustain a membership there today.  Furthermore, if you built NGLA (And it was built by anyone other than Doak, who always gets a free pass) all you would here is the same people bitching that it is manufactured and not what the land presented.  Remember, CBM and Raynor were the founders of the Fazio school of built what you want.  
Quote

Later he said:  
 NGLA exists today because it is one of the most prestigious clubs in the country and Long Island is nothing if not about prestige (Not meant to minimize NGLA, which is a special place but to highligh how well a reincarnation of it would do if it was built on a landfill in Monroe, MI).  If a designer manufactured a 6,400-yard course that looked like NGLA today, IMO it would be bankrupt.
[I hope he means that if it was built in michigan it would be bankrupt???]

While David is certainly entitled to his opinion, I dont agree.   What do you think . . .

1.  Does the world need more courses like NGLA?  Why or why not?

2.  Could a course modeled after NGLA survive today?

3.  For those that havent tired of the ratings discussion yet.  It really troubles me that someone who is out there rating golf courses and has seen hundreds of the best ones could come to such conclusions.  Frankly I dont want any advice on golf courses from someone who could come up with something so antithetical to what I think.  Should the magazines have position papers so we know what we are getting ourselves into with their ratings?

Brian_Gracely

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 09:49:11 PM »
would the architect of NGLA-II be required to build replicas of half the holes at NGLA, but claim that they are better than the originals, which were claimed to be better than the originals?  

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2003, 09:52:59 PM »
I think that National should not be duplicated, but instead used as the inspiration to do that type of architecture. If that were done, give me a couple in Southern Florida, and I for one, would join in a nano second!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2003, 10:15:32 PM »
2.  Could a course modeled after NGLA survive today?


David -

What qualities of NGLA would you like to reproduce in a new course?

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

DMoriarty

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 11:04:14 PM »
David -

What qualities of NGLA would you like to reproduce in a new course?

If I had my druthers, all of them.  

But I guess I would settle for the strategic width, strategic bunkers, incredible strategy dictating greens, options options options options,  strategic half-par holes,  strategic use of short grass and slope to create interest on the ground as well as in the air, strategic architecture which doesnt fiight the natural terrain, variety, beauty, and classic strategic concepts.  

Heck, in the spirit of the place I would be perfectly content if the reproduction ripped off many of the exact strategic concepts of the place, so long as it was done well (not a new concept I know.)  
_________________

Brian Gracely wrote:
Quote
would the architect of NGLA-II be required to build replicas of half the holes at NGLA, but claim that they are better than the originals, which were claimed to be better than the originals?

Mr. Gracely

No formal requirements . . . but if it would help to create something as wonderful and lasting as NGLA then by all means the architect should build replicas, claim they are better than the originals, which claimed to be better than the originals.    

By the way, I havent seen the original originals, nonetheless I am not sure it is accurate to call NGLA's versions "duplicates."  After all, wouldnt the "road hole" at least then need a road?  

Also, I bet that MacDonald's claim isnt nearly as outlandish now as it probably seemed when MacDonald first made it.  

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2003, 11:15:41 PM »
David,
You should have come to New Mexico.
Black Mesa:
Width - as much as you could have in NM - half check
incredible strategic dictating greens - check
strategic half-par holes - check
strategic use of short grass and slope to create interest as well as in the air - check
strategic architecture which doesn't fight the natural terrain - check
variety - check
beauty - check
classic strategic concepts - check
price < $50 - not check (NGLA a few more $'s)
rating awards - check   ;)


Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2003, 11:52:48 PM »
I don't think a replica of NGLA should be built per se.  But, the genre, style, concept is fine.  What the heck, Raynor and Banks did it everywhere they went.  Brian Silva did it at Black Creek.  I don't have a problem with other modern archies adapting the same hole concepts.  But, I don't think a bunch of new ones with replica holes would get much critical acclaim.  I think if it is done once in a while like Black Creek coming along, and the newly formed founding members want it, then go ahead and pay tribute.  But, I don't think you are going to catch lightening in a bottle and duplicate the entire design and location and circumstance of NGLA anywhere else, no matter how faithful you might be to replication.  There are a lot of replications of the Mona Lisa, but it just isn't the same thing as the authentic.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2003, 11:57:56 PM »
I agree with David.

If they put NGLA anywhere, it would flourish IMHO.  It's too good to not do extremely well.  It's merits are too strong for even the stupid to miss.

I think instead of putting NGLA in Monroe, MI, they should put Pebble Beach there.  Take away that Pacific Ocean and 5-Star Hotel and you have a real bankruptcy waiting to happen.


Jeff F.

#nowhitebelt

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2003, 12:35:46 AM »
David -

What qualities of NGLA would you like to reproduce in a new course?

If I had my druthers, all of them.  

But I guess I would settle for the strategic width, strategic bunkers, incredible strategy dictating greens, options options options options,  strategic half-par holes,  strategic use of short grass and slope to create interest on the ground as well as in the air, strategic architecture which doesnt fiight the natural terrain, variety, beauty, and classic strategic concepts.  


Having played neither NGLA or Rustic Canyon and based on many discussions on this board, doesn't Rustic purport those qualities?

(I'm not attempting to compare NGLA to RC, just the qualities of both ...)
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Thomas_Brown

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2003, 12:48:30 AM »
My first question - how many sites are blessed w/ the sandy soil you see on the south shore of LI?  From what I've heard this gave Kenny(or C&C if you prefer) a considerable head start on Friar's Head(ok - maybe not southern shore, but close enough.

I think this is probably your most limiting criteria.  -at least in the US.

Wasn't last week's question on GCA.com:
  "Why not build another Sand Hills?"

DMoriarty

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2003, 02:09:27 AM »
Having played neither NGLA or Rustic Canyon and based on many discussions on this board, doesn't Rustic purport those qualities?

(I'm not attempting to compare NGLA to RC, just the qualities of both ...)

Yes and no.  Rustic certain possesses all these qualities to a degree, but it is really a matter of degree.  

For example, the greens at rustic are tame when compared to some at NGLA.  The green/green complexes at NGLA are the most amazing man-made creations I have ever seen in golf.  They are jaw dropping wonders of the golf world.  They quite literally left me standing slack-jawed and speechless. Yet they somehow fit in perfectly with everything else.  The greens at Rustic also fit in seemlessly with the surroundings, but they are very subtle, much less immediately revealing.  A good thing, probably, because greens of NGLA's magnitude would likely overwhelm the subtle terrain at Rustic.  

But yes they share many of the qualities I mention, which is why I wish there were many more courses modeled after one or another.  
_______________________

Tom B.,  Good soil would help and perhaps a garbage dump in Michigan doesnt have the best soil.  But the question was meant as more theoritical--  What types of courses should architects look to for inspiration?  Is NGLA a good model?  Would new courses inspired by NGLA be successful or would they be overshadowed by the mass of courses being built by Fazio, Nicklaus, Jones, et al.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2003, 04:11:57 AM »
A question for David Wigler:

Have you been to or seen NGLA to be able to make those statements?

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2003, 08:27:38 AM »
Tommy,

As is David's habit, he clipped my post to make his point.  I was nothing but complimentary of NGLA, so do not get offended.  The point I was trying to make is that a replica of NGLA, put on a landfill in Monroe, MI would go bankrupt.  It also was prefaced with an IMO (Not stated as fact).  I truly believe this.  There are a lot of developers in this country.  If one of them felt that they could make money by creating a private club and replicating NGLA on an inferior site in the midwest, they would have done it.  There is no heresy in that opinion.  David's "I should be banished forever from ratings for that opinion" comment is more of his "Little man" inferiority complex personality.  It is why I have been spending less and less time on GCA.  I really like to discuss architecture.  It would be interesting to here why IYO NGLA could be replicated and be successful.  Especially given that every architect I play with is being told to lenghten and toughen courses.  To make it personal and offensive is David's style and adds nothing to the discussion.

I doubt I will be back on GCA until after Christmas, but defintely give me a call and we can discuss.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2003, 08:29:03 AM by David Wigler »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2003, 08:32:38 AM »
The exact replica of National is not possible given the many variables, but the exactitude of the act of creating a NGLA should not be the issue.  Rather the deep understanding of what it means can be meaningful if that understanding is allowed to come forth on another course while it is in planning or design.  Just in reading Bill Evans liner notes for “Kind of Blue”, you might could make the connection here by applying the idea espoused in the notes that the architect must work within a framework that is real to the site before them, but the improvising that occurs on the site can be informed by the spirit of NGLA in a manner that can result in something very satisfying.  Here you would have what he calls the direct deed which is the most meaningful reflection affecting the design in a direct way without being overly influenced by deliberation.  In my mind meaning that too much deliberation, which is the hallmark of this site, actually can dampen creative, improvised action, which is the most meaningful action, IF the actor (architect) is properly informed by great works like NGLA, and IF the architect is directly involved in the creation, on the site.   As he goes onto say it is “not uncommon for a jazz musician to be expected to improvise on new material at a recording session, the character of these pieces (referring to “Kind of Blue”) represents a particular challenge.”  Just to make a big leap here I might say that it is not uncommon for some architects to be on site constantly, I mean every “liner note” you read about a project the architect brags about all the days they spent on site, but the character, meaning for me the quality of what has informed the architect, like an NGLA, is what will come out in the architect’s improvising in the field.  That is the key difference, what is informing the architect so that when they go on site and begin that creative design process directly in the field, improvising, what has been rolling around in their head, because that is what is likely to come out in the present design.  An architect consumed by NGLA is likely to be producing something like that in the field.  It may be happening more than you think, because you may not be sophisticated enough, or attentive enough to see it, you want to see an exact replication of NGLA, hit me in the face with it, rather than what is more likely to happen and that is a spontaneous expression of the spirit and principles of an NGLA but in a totally different environment, making it more difficult to discern but certainly not making it less worthy of your attention.  As a point, I am immersed in a book about the creation of “Kind of Blue”.  Now I know more, I know about influences in the songs I never knew about, I know more about classical music influences in Miles Davis I never knew about or I never would have known by just listening to his work, because I am not that attentive, knowledgeable, or sophisticated enough to discern these connections.  That does not mean they do not exist, even though I cannot discover them.   But, now in a quiet environment with no distractions, listening to the music, I cannot imagine the need to hear any other jazz disc.  I know so much about each song and am learning more each day I cannot imagine needing any more.  But that is ridiculous.  That set of songs have influenced others in all fields of music, it has been a holy grail of music for many, therefore there has to be more great music out there influenced by this one monumental work that if I just gave the time and attention I could enjoy the other music as well.  So it is to say that if NGLA were the “Kind of Blue” it has and can spawn others to create in the same spirit, not the same exact look, but definitely in the same wonderful improvisational manner it was created.  The burden falls on the golfer to take the time to learn more to study harder to be more attentive, and not to just say the influences of NGLA do not exist today just because they cannot see it in there cursory manner of looking at courses.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2003, 08:45:56 AM »
KBM,

Interesting post and great point.  I have no doubt that many architects are trying to channel that spirit into their works and the ability to learn more about architecture and better be able to identify that spirit is what originally attracted me to GCA.

Just to give me a sanity check, if you were contracted to build an exact replica of NGLA and make it a private club in Harrisburg, PA on a fairly inferior piece of land that would take tremendous earth moving to get to be an exact replica (Except for the fact that you clearly could not replicate Long Island Sound in the backround), and would be a par 73 of 6,700 yards; do you think the project could make money or would the private club be unable to sustain itself?
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

A_Clay_Man

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2003, 09:10:32 AM »
 Take away that Pacific Ocean and 5-Star Hotel and you have a real bankruptcy waiting to happen.

Jeff- Perhaps my many times around Pebble beach,combined with the many notches on my belt from many courses throughout this country, I must flat out disagree with your comment. I'm not saying you're wrong,because that's your opinion,and since there is no way to validate (prove,
disprove) it we will never know. But, I would be happy to be the guy who was able to build the features at PB which would work anywhere, even a trailer park muni.

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2003, 09:47:59 AM »
David,

I do not know that market well, and I think your question is most relevant in the sense of whether it would work economically given the high degree of construction involved.  From that stand point, there may be a model there to judge.  I believe a Hurdzan/Fry private course was constructed recently, and I think they spend major money when they do courses so there could be your answer.  My guess would be no it would not work.  You could ask Eric Pevoto, different market, probably a better market at French Creek, but I suspect they did not spend a bundle to construct the course, the membership fees are reasonable (probably as a result of the reasonable constrcution budget), the course is extraordinary, and I think they are selling at a good pace.  

Would an exact NGLA sell well in the Harrisburg market based upon the character of the course, yes I think potential members would be blown away and join.  However, the cost to construct it under the circumstances you laid out would make the initiation so high you may not have a market.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2003, 09:51:47 AM »
Quick answer:  Because there's already a golf course there :)

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2003, 09:55:33 AM »
Would an exact NGLA sell well in the Harrisburg market based upon the character of the course, yes I think potential members would be blown away and join.  However, the cost to construct it under the circumstances you laid out would make the initiation so high you may not have a market.

KBM,

Thanks for your reply.  I picked Harrisburg because I thought it was near you and figured you would be more familiar with it than Monroe, MI.  Your answer is what my suspicion was.  That was the entire point I was trying to make and a point apparently so offensive that David felt I should be banned from rating for life.  :P

I promise to do my best to try and see the spirit of the work in other courses.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2003, 10:59:42 AM »
David,
I think or at least trying to understand what you are saying, and my question is one not to dissect your personal view. It's more of what the exact description of NGLA really is. That's why I was asking--Have you been to and seen NGLA?

To say, or at least try to say would it work in Deerborn, Michigan or even say, some really cool Sebonac/Peconic-like Bay in CoeurdAlene, Idaho isn't the point. The point is that anyone that understands NGLA realizes that its more then just the site. Call it an integrity of golf holes where some of them are in fact better then the originals they emulate. And, just like any GREAT golf course, has 18 different green complexes that are so unique, as definitive examples of what golf greens should be like, as well as how they work with the actual golf hole, I get giddy thinking about them.

One of the reasons why is, believe it or not, I feel I'm a pretty impressionable guy. Do you want ot know how many stories I have heard of just how great NGLA really was before I laid my eyes on it? Do you want to know how many times I have received phone calls from people on the course or in the clubhouse telling me what I'm missing? I tend to get pretty sentimental about it, because those phone calls as well as all of the descriptions have formed a foundation in my mind, and that makes me want to study it even further. This is why it almost seems blasphemous to even suggest it being built or even using it for a hypothetical comparison. Someone that really gets NGLA, knows, you just don't do that.

And thats the point.

So, I would take it then you haven't been to NGLA, correct?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2003, 11:05:39 AM »
Shivas,
Last time I went to a hockey game, was the Ducks vs. ???????? I can't even remember now!

Anyway, My buddies and I are drinking a few beers,and it's late in the third period (I almost spelled-out "quarter") and I look-up on Diamond Vision or whatever you want to call it to see the horror of my ugly mug.

That was it!

No more Hockey for me!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2003, 12:06:45 PM »
Tommy-

The horror!

You and David build another NGLA and I will come.  I haven't seen it or RC, but I am sure that I would like it and would be more than willing to pay a green fee.  I do have the feeling that we are in a small minority, but perhaps yours and David's passions might be enough to bring more to the fold.  Do you believe that RC is so successful in the market because of the design or its pricing?

DMoriarty

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2003, 09:16:32 PM »
Tommy,

As is David's habit, he clipped my post to make his point.  I was nothing but complimentary of NGLA, so do not get offended.  The point I was trying to make is that a replica of NGLA, put on a landfill in Monroe, MI would go bankrupt.  It also was prefaced with an IMO (Not stated as fact).  I truly believe this.  There are a lot of developers in this country.  If one of them felt that they could make money by creating a private club and replicating NGLA on an inferior site in the midwest, they would have done it.  There is no heresy in that opinion.  David's "I should be banished forever from ratings for that opinion" comment is more of his "Little man" inferiority complex personality.  It is why I have been spending less and less time on GCA.  I really like to discuss architecture.  It would be interesting to here why IYO NGLA could be replicated and be successful.  Especially given that every architect I play with is being told to lenghten and toughen courses.  To make it personal and offensive is David's style and adds nothing to the discussion.

I doubt I will be back on GCA until after Christmas, but defintely give me a call and we can discuss.

1.  I've gone back over your posts and I most certainly did not unfairly clip them.  

2.  After rereading your posts, I question your claim that you were solely discussing the Mich Dump scenario.  It wasnt until after Shivas incredulously noted that you couldnt be serious regarding NGLA (after the first paragraph I posted), that you brought up the dump . . .

The first quoted paragraph is your complete and bald assertion that a modern NGLA couldnt sustain a membership and that it would be panned as unnatural.   No qualifiers whatsoever.    There is no other way to spin it.

3.  I dont recall saying you should be forever banished from the ratings.  What I did say is that such absurd conclusions cast serious doubt on your approach to golf course architecture.  This is doubly so given that you apparently have never even played NGLA!  Yes an attack on your views but only because I think it fair to assume that you represent a certain segment of raters . . .

4.  My method is to make it personal and offensive?  Well . . . your posts to me and about me speak for themselves on this issue.

5.  Speaking of your posts.  On the other thread you said that I was just posting all this because I didnt like you . . . I never had any reason not to like you until all this.   You also say that it is because I didnt like your review of RC . . . 1) I dont have access to GW reviews;  2) last we spoke you really liked RC (apparently you werent completely forthcoming); and 3)  If my main concern was RC ratings, do you really think I would be going after all the raters like I have the last couple of days?
___________________________

By the way,Shivas' original post about NGLA stemmed directly from a discussion we had the day before, where I repeatedly said why the hell dont they build more courses like NGLA.   I suspect he thought he was doing me a favor by broaching the issue, but as he can attest, it was something I planned on addressing myself.  So perhaps this isnt as much about you as you think.  
_________

I will never understand posters who are surprised and defensive when their posts are thoroughly scrutinized.  
« Last Edit: December 11, 2003, 09:21:26 PM by DMoriarty »

ian

Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2003, 10:14:07 PM »
MacDonald, Raynor and Banks all built variations of their holes to fit the natural site. Why would you duplicate the NGLA? Why not take great holes from ALL their body of work (Canmargo, Yale, etc.), and build the best tribute their style you can given the site?

I don't see how the Tour 18 or other replica course can be heaped on with abuse, yet the duplicated NGLA would be OK. I don't want a copy of Augusta or The Old Course in Toronto, so why would I want the NGLA there. Borrowing is great, replication sucks.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Not Build Another NGLA?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2003, 06:14:48 AM »
The land dictates the course.

Early American architects like MacDonald learnt from what was happening in the British Isles & then adapted it to the land they had to work with. The early British architects merely marked out tees & greens, allowing the routing to be dictated by the land.

We need better land, not copies of NGLA.

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