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Rick Shefchik

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Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« on: November 17, 2003, 03:45:49 PM »
I didn't see this discussed in the other thread about the Ocean Course -- did anyone else catch Curtis Strange and Baker-Finch discussing the maintenance meld on #12 Sunday afternoon? They didn't use that phrase -- they must know that it's a registered trademark belonging to one of our GCA Gods -- but they were, surprisingly, right on point:

Both Furyk and, I think, Immelman, came up short on the long par-4 12th and Strange blamed it on the soft conditions of the fairway vs. the hard conditions of the green.

"The game has changed not because of the golfers or the equipment, but because of the courses," Curtis said (and I'm very loosely paraphrasing.) "They'd like to play the ground game, but they can't because of the course conditions."

Strange was saying the the long approach shot into a front pin on 12 was an ideal situation for a running shot, but the ball would not reach the green because the fairway was too soft; and a shot that landed just onto the green would bound well past the pin. And that's what happened: Both Immelman and Furyk tried to bounce it onto the green, and both shots stopped short.

Sounds like he gets it -- strange as that may sound. Any comment about the course setup, Mike Vegis? Or was Strange incorrect in his assessment of the conditions?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 03:47:00 PM by Rick Shefchik »
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2003, 04:01:44 PM »
Strange was actually right about that. The fairways were soft.
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

kwl

Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2003, 04:17:31 PM »
Heard it.
Saw it.
Believe it...but can't believe it. Why do "they" do this...can't blame the USGA on this one. Who is the culprit?
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2003, 04:24:47 PM »
A lot of that was due to the overseeded Rye.  I don't know much about the course setup but by the looks of Furyk's shot, it appears we might be guilty as charged.  

We're between a rock and a hard place.  We need it green to sell the course to the vast TV market but wanted it hard and fast to give the pros the best playing surface...  

We're eventually converting the entire course to Paspalum, fairways, rough and all (the tees, No. 1 and 1/2 of No. 2 are already converted).  As Curtis mentioned a number of times, this grass doesn't need as much water as most surfaces so we'll be able to keep it hard for the ground game while still letting it remain green...  (or so goes the theory...)
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2003, 04:47:45 PM »
Mike -- Thanks for your reply. I definitely hope I get to play your course someday -- green or not, it was one of the most appealing courses I've seen on TV all year.

But your comment confirmed a suspicion I've had, and even mentioned to my wife as we were watching. TV not only dictates starting times now, but course conditions, and for no better reason than they think viewers want to see a green course. I know nobody at this site cares about seeing a green course; in fact, we tend to get orgasmic about brown courses. My guess is that only a small sliver of ABC's audience this weekend stayed with the World Cup because the grass was green. Maybe I'm wrong; but if I am wrong, announcers like Strange have to begin educating the public about what a really good golf course looks like, as well as how it should play.

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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

A_Clay_Man

Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2003, 04:50:54 PM »
Mike - I thought I recall in your detailing of the changes that the aprons were changed to Bermuski. Wasn't it more likely that change that made their balls not release on 12?
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ChasLawler

Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2003, 04:53:40 PM »
Quote from: Mike Vegis @ Kiawah on November 17, 2003, 04:24:47 PM
We're between a rock and a hard place.  We need it green to sell the course to the vast TV market but wanted it hard and fast to give the pros the best playing surface...  

Mike - no offense, but that's a sell-out answer. The perception of "greener is better" needs to be changed, and it's responses like that which perpetuate the situation.

I know it's harder for Kiawah, as it's a public resort, and you need people coming in to spend their money, but if everyone keeps selling out for more green (no pun intended) the situation only gets worse.

It's a gamble, but I think Rick is on to something in that it really becomes the job of the broadcasters to "educate" the masses. Unfortunately, we can't be sure the broadcasters are educated themselves.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 05:35:47 PM by R_Junah »
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kwl

Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2003, 05:05:05 PM »
I am impressed with Mike's answer, regardless of the $ issues. Mike states his honest opinion. Despite an understanding of "firm and fast", some courses with suboptimal conditions look pretty bad on the tube (don't know if that is enough to drive people away from the tube...suggestion-go "heavy" on the alcohol, highly concentrated fructose syrup beverages, and salty snack commercials and lethargy and obesity will keep people firmly planted).

Overall, a great success. I am looking forward to a visit.
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SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2003, 05:24:15 PM »
Mike and his owners are under no obligation to "risk" their asset to make a point.  They did as I would do, and everyone on this board would likely do - make the course look as appealing as possible to the folks watching TV.  And it isn't selling out.  Its damn good business sense.

Mike's job isn't to get viewers to watch the show, his job is to get viewers to buy houses at Kiawah.  And, if 99% of homebuyers prefer lush and green to brown and fast, then water away, Mike.  

Plus, I didn't see the shot, but it sounds like Furyk and others should have it it lower with less spin if they wanted to run the ball up.  Running the ball up doesn't just mean hitting it short and letting it bounce on.
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2003, 05:31:27 PM »
Quote from: A_Clay_Man on November 17, 2003, 04:50:54 PM
Mike - I thought I recall in your detailing of the changes that the aprons were changed to Bermuski. Wasn't it more likely that change that made their balls not release on 12?

The aprons were changed FROM TifDwarf bermuda (same as the green) to 419 Bermuda (same as the fairways).
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2003, 05:38:10 PM »
Quote

Mike - no offense, but that's a sell-out answer. The perception of "greener is better" needs to be changed, and it's responses like that which perpetuate the situation.

I know it's harder for Kiawah, as it's a public resort, and you need people coming in to spend their money, but if everyone keeps selling out for more green (no pun intended) the situation only gets worse.

It's a gamble, but I think Rick is on to something in that it really becomes the job of the broadcasters to "educate" the masses. Unfortunately, we can't be sure the broadcsaters are educated themselves.
Quote

We're a business.  We've got to sell golf rounds now.  The VAST majority of golfers see green as good.  I'll tell you what.  You educate the golfing public on your dime... :-\

SBusch--

We don't sell real estate.  That's the other company on the island that run Cassique and The River Course.  We sell golf vacations at Kiawah Island Golf Resort...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 05:41:23 PM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2003, 05:41:01 PM »
Mike,
Can you share the research done on paspalum that proves it needs less water then bermuda? I've seen some of the research, and the last I saw paspalum was the most salt tolerant of all grasses that can be used for golf course turf. There are other grasses more salt tolerant, but they don't have the density at low heights of cut to form good golf turf. But, the research I have read has not proved that paspalum will be maintainable at a quality needed for greens, fwys, and tees with less water then bermuda. Lower water quality, yes, less water, no. The key being that although both paspalum and bermuda are very drought tolerant, bermuda retains it's quality better then paspalum when under drought stress. I heard Strange say more then once that maybe paspalum was the grass of the future for use on golf courses because of it's low water needs. I don't expect to see paspalum out of the tropic zone any time soon. I believe paspalum is a great grass in the right application, but it certainly has it's limitations.
Also, I believe the paspalum on the greens was overseeded, was it? Once a turf is overseeded, the needs of the overseed turf surpass the needs of the primary or dormant turf. Even if the entire course is paspalum, it will still be overseeded and the rye that is there will still need more water then the paspalum, right?
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2003, 05:44:14 PM »
Don--

I only know what I'm told...  Someone else with far more knowledge of growing the stuff did the research.  I just report what they said. ??? ??? ???
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2003, 05:49:04 PM »
Quote from: Mike Vegis @ Kiawah on November 17, 2003, 05:38:10 PM


We're a business.  We've got to sell golf rounds now.  The VAST majority of golfers see green as good.  

Mike,

With logical quotes such as this one on Golf Club Atlas, what will Brad Klein have to speak about at the Winter Meeting ? ;)
Quote
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 05:49:31 PM by Mike_Sweeney »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2003, 05:50:05 PM »
Mike,
Fair enough. Whatever the case, the place looked great and I had my map out highlighting my route to SC. What a beautiful place.
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W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2003, 05:55:03 PM »
Mike,
Don asked whether the entire course was overseeded.  Is this true?  I was under the impression that the greens were not overseeded, that only the Paspalum was on the putting surfaces.
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re:Curtis, Kiawah and Maintenance Meld
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2003, 06:15:57 PM »
The greens were overseeded with bent to be on the safe side.  This is a new strain and we didn't want to have an early deep frost ruin their TV debut.  We're waiting for spring transition to see if we will be overseeding next year or covering the greens when we get cold weather forcasted in the future...
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