Why I can't stand Florida golf?

« **on:** November 14, 2003, 05:01:13 PM »

I am in Florida once again this year -- part business and part golf and I have to say this -- I hate Florida golf!

It has nothing to do with the people or even the weather. It's the golf architecture -- or the sad lack thereof.

I just finished playing two of the 18-hole layouts at PGA National (Champion & Haig) and they are simply the perfect personification of Florida golf. Ditto my time at the PGA Golf Club in Port St. Lucie and the two-36 hole layouts I played called the North & South.

The topography simply puts you to sleep -- zzzzz! In addition, you have a plethora of water hazards in all types and sizes. In addition, the bermuda turf is the S-L-O-W-E-S-T kind of turf one can play. The golf shot is simply a-b-s-o-r-b-e-d at impact and it becomes nothing more than a point-to-point slugfest. I hit the ball a good ways off the tee but for many others it simply means the air game is the dominant shotmaking skill needed.

Let me also mention how horrific putting can be on bermuda in Florida. You have more grain than they keep in a Kansas silo. The putts have no consistency and it becomes poke and hope on just about any stroke.

I don't doubt that Florida has a s-e-l-e-c-t number of courses that are worthy to play with Seminole at the top top and then a few others. I personally like Jupiter Hills (The Hills), The Medalist, Innisbrook (Copperhead), World Woods, Black Diamond, TPC / Stadium and Ocean Hammock. But, minus these and maybe a few others playing golf in Florida for me is dullsville on a big time basis. If there are new courses in the state that really have something to offer from an architectural point of view and from a preparation standpoint I'd like to know about them.

One of the Tom Doak comments that I most agree with is his take on Florida golf. Dead flat land with improperly prepared bermuda lends itself to a major league snore in my book. I can't imagine a state in the Union with more layouts that wrack up heavy points for being so tedious and dull when playing. I'm just itching to leave Sunday and say good-bye to Florida golf once and for all.

« **Reply #1 on:** November 14, 2003, 05:05:47 PM »

Matt:

With all due respect, you are partly at fault if you chose to play N and S over the Dye. One of the better layouts on a flat site that I've seen in the last two years.

« **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2003, 05:09:40 PM »

Matt Ward,

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

I like golf in Florida.

Perhaps playing in 80 degree weather as opposed to shoveling snow in my driveway biases my view.

Old Marsh, Pine Tree, Boca Rio and others are always fun and challenging to play. All three tend to have fairly fast greens.

I'd rather be on a plane heading to Florida then a plane heading to New Jersey at this time of year.

« **Reply #3 on:** November 14, 2003, 05:26:34 PM »

Poor Matt Ward - stuck down in Dullsville, Florida.

36 at PGA National...another 36 in Port St. Lucie...in November.

I can't think of anything worse.

« **Reply #4 on:** November 14, 2003, 05:40:41 PM »

I do agree that PGA National is so overated. However, the bermuda should be great right now. i will not go there again with you. It is a great day for golf here in Louisiana!!

« **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2003, 06:16:07 PM »

Matt -

I don't like Florida golf either, but I get there for different reasons.

I don't mind the grainy Bermuda greens. Just another kind of putting challenge. (Do all interesting/difficult putting surfaces have to be difficult/interesting because they are fast? Can't they be interesting because they are grainy and slow?)

I don't mind the soft fairways. Just another way to play golf. No roll, so adjust your game accordingly. You should count yourself blessed if you regularly play firm and fast courses.

What I do mind about Florida golf are the things Florida developers can't do anything about:

- Flat terrain that has to be sexed up with lots of artificial hazards. Which almost always means lots of sand and water.

- Constant wind. Not little zephyrs. Real wind. 24/7.

- You combine the two and you have courses where the designer forces you to hit aerial shot after aerial shot which, in the wind, is almost always the dumbest possible shot in the circumstances.

Somtimes it gets out of hand. At Dye's Old Marsh the 5th is a par 4 with a wild Himalaya mound fronting a green that is surrounded on two sides by water and one side by sand. So you get to loft a short iron into a (usually) strong cross wind to a green surrounded by hazards. Two thirds of which will result in penalty strokes. Did I mention the shot is totally blind?

Yes, some golf is better than no golf. I understand that shovelling snow is not as attractive as walking 18 in 80 degree weather.

Thank goodness I don't have to make that choice.

Another way to look at Florida golf:

The best course in Florida is Seminole. If Seminole were located on Long Island or in Philadelphia, what would we think of it? Would we rank it as high as, say, Rolling Green?

Bob

« **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2003, 06:24:16 PM »

Bob,
Are you saying the Seminole is ranked so highly because it is the best in Florida?

I think Seminole is one of the finest courses in the world, the first Ross course I would choose to play on a daily basis. If it was Long Island, I do not imagine that it would be ahead of Shinnecock or NGLA, but what would be ahead?

« **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2003, 06:46:39 PM »

Matt,

I've never played PGA National so I won't comment on those courses. In reference to the rest of your post, I disagree with your comments on PGA Golf Club and bermuda grass.

I actually found PGA Golf Club North, South, and Dye to all be enjoyable golf courses with the Dye course being the best of the three. Sure the North and South courses have homes on the perimeter and don't necessarily benefit from amazing views, seaside location, or even a primo parkland setting. But, for Fazio, I think they are very strategic courses with some pretty good green complexes.

As for bermuda grass. Well, I might be biased because I grew up playing on many bermuda courses but I find the grass to be a very comprable grass for golf. Actually, I have played some bermuda grass courses that have played as fast if not faster than many of their bent or rye counterparts. I think a browning bermuda is about as firm a condition as one can find, especially in the deserts of the southwest.

I know they water the hell out of the courses in Florida to keep them green and it does diminish an experience by making the game go aerial but to dismiss bermuda and Florida golf as a whole is a little harsh, IMHO.

Ultimately, I would rather play up here in the MET section on the classics but I find Florida golf and golf played on bermuda to be very enjoyable and fair surface to play on.

Jeff F.

« **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2003, 07:54:05 PM »

Matt,

Borrowing from the late great Southern humorist Lewis Grizzard:

Move down South. Join our clubs. Attend our churches. Marry our women. Just don't tell us how they do things up North. If you don't like something about The South, Delta Airlines is ready when you are.

This also from Jimmy Buffett:

They're freezing up in Buffalo,
Still stuck in their cars
While I'm lying here
'neath the moon and the stars.

Nonethless, all you Yankees need to keep visiting. Who else is going to visit the roadside alligator farms?

Mike

« **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2003, 09:49:03 PM »

Seminole, Old Marsh, Loxahatchee, Loblolly Pines, the Bear Club, Boca Rio, Medalist and that's just from Jupiter down. Add 80 degrees vs. 20 degrees and snow in the Northeast, it's not a tough call to make. You just showed up to play in the wrong place. Naples, Longboat Key/Sarosota, Orlando area, Jacksonville.....don't you think you're being a little too tough on the state of Florida?

BTW, the 6th hole at Old Marsh (#1 hole) more than makes up for the 5th. One of toughest par 4's I've played forcing you to bite off as much of the water down the right side to have a chance at the green. Even from the right side if the pins in the back you only have a shot at the front quarter of the green and then you're looking at a 40 footer with some interesting reads. Hit it too far left off the tee and you're looking at 220 into a green that runs away from you (the water runs all the way down the right fairway). I personally don't mind the 5th, easy 3 wood off the tee and then peeking around the mound to see if you're putting or taking a drop, lying 3 on the fringe. One of my favorite courses in the world, and I feel blessed to play it everytime, especially on the back nine out in the marsh, playing successive left doglegs whose carries just keep getting tougher as you go deeper into the marsh. It's a beautiful spot, even with the power lines they got stuck with starting on 12. Great caddy program, always in perfect condition, never crowded, great cookies at the turn....what more could you ask for?

« **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2003, 10:48:45 PM »

GrandWazo,

Interesting that somebody wouldn't like # 5 at Old Marsh.

I wonder how they feel about # 17 at Prestwick ??

# 6 sure is the real deal.

« **Reply #11 on:** November 14, 2003, 11:51:49 PM »

I'm with Matt on this. I'd rather play any mediocre course in my area, from 35*-40* than almost any of the highly rated stuff in FL in 80*.

« **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2003, 07:19:36 AM »

I actually find myself in strong agreement with Matt Ward. For the most part, Florida golf is boring, except for a few great courses. In my mind, the topography is the chief culprit. To me, every hole does seem exactly alike.

I've tentatively scheduled myself a Florida vacation this winter and am lined up to play Ocean Hammock and the Rookery, among others - sort of a vacation with friends across the state. I"m sure I'll enjoy Ocean Hammock.

« **Reply #13 on:** November 15, 2003, 07:39:36 AM »

That's all a little tought to swallow Matt - I guess Floridians could lower the experience of "your North-East" courses by saying there is nothing but trees up here, and you can't even see where you are going for ALL the trees in the way. Northerners are tree-plant happy!!

As Robin Williams says, lets put a big ####@! tree in the way, now we can call it golf!

Different does not mean bad, unless you are Matt Ward!

« **Reply #14 on:** November 15, 2003, 09:25:21 AM »

Matt,
Spend more time in central Fla.

« **Reply #15 on:** November 15, 2003, 09:40:20 AM »

Quote from: Shivas on November 15, 2003, 08:53:00 AM

Matt Ward, I could kiss you!

Go ahead! Seems as though Matt hasn't had enough interesting experiences lately!

« **Reply #16 on:** November 15, 2003, 10:19:50 AM »

I like Matt alot, but it would take a comped round at Pine Valley for me to kiss him. On the other hand, I would pay a few bucks to see shivas, Shivas, or David Schmidt plant a smacker on him.

In comparison to the treasures available in the Met area, I am sure that Florida golf must seem very mundane. I do fondly remember escaping an often snow-covered Ohio for spring break in south Florida during my college years. Though I had little money to play golf, the occasional rounds at inexpensive Melreese, the Biltmore, Miami Shores, Naples muni, etc. were God-sent.

BTW, Camp Creek near Panama City is a fine course that I would not at all mind playing on a regular basis. It is not Shinny, but how many courses in the world really measure up? I also thought that Fiddlesticks near Fort Myers was a very good test.

Matt, you are blessed to have access to the world's greatest courses. At the same time, you might be damned to an extent in that more than 15,000 courses in the U.S. probably do little to tickle your fancy.

« **Reply #17 on:** November 15, 2003, 10:34:49 AM »

Pat -

The 17th at Prestwick is a great hole and the 5th at Old Marsh is a bad hole because one offers reasonable and interesting recovery opportunities after a blind approach and the other doesn't. And, by the way, the one that doesn't is also the hole most often played in strong winds.

I do like the 6th at OM. I also like the 1st (for the little hump in front of the green), 2nd and 10th. But jeesh, with water in play on virtually every shot on every hole, people with handicaps over 12 soon lose their sense of humor and head back to the clubhouse. I should know, that's what happened with a couple of groups I played with at OM.

OM is the poster child for the failure of the modern architectural imagination in Florida.

As for Seminole, it is a wonderful course. It is my humble opinion, however, that it would barely crack the top 5 in either Philly, northern NJ or on LI.

That's not a knock on Seminole. Rather it's an indication of how hard it is to design good courses in Florida. Between the featureless terrain, wet, hot weather and the wind, architects aren't left with a lot of good design options.

Bob

« **Reply #18 on:** November 15, 2003, 10:35:22 AM »

Matt

Poor Baby!

Maybe you should have done a better job with course selection. Sure, most courses are relatively flat with the challenge coming from water and bankers......but guess what! You are in FLORIDA....if you do not like it go elsewhere!

On the serious side there are several courses that make good use of terrain. Instead of playing the North or South or even the Dye at the PGA complex in Port St. Lousey (Term used by locals) you should have played the George Fazio gem behind the guard gates known as The Legacy. It is a wonderful course!

Or head a little north to Vero where you will find numerous challenging courses that make use of the sand dune that stretches from Vero to Jupiter. It is the same dune that Jupiter Hills is built on. If you seek man made elevation please speak to a Mr. Donald Trump. The design of several holes at Trump International were inspired by Jupiter Hills.

If you seek even more elevation change....then central Florida is for you. The aformentioned World Woods, Black Diamond, and Lake Jovita offer elevation changes up to 90 feet.

You are much too well traveled to bundle all Florida courses into a sigle stereotype.

Enjoy the warmth. While you were basking in the sun of Florida I was fighting gale force winds at PV.....I WIN!

« **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2003, 02:32:39 PM »

I'd have to agree with grandwazo about Old Marsh. First of all, the golf course is always in perfect condition, plus it currently has bentgrass greens that are always rolling fast and true.(Though they will be going to TifEagle in April) The variety and shot opinions are numerous at Old Marsh. As for #5, just be thankful that most of us would have a wedge in our hands!! If that hole doesn't tickle your fancy, there are a solid 12 other holes that a very, very good. As for Old Marsh having water come into play on almost every shot, remember that this course was built in a very, very sensative area and the drainage on the course is very state of the art. It's a wonder how Dye was able to push up enough land to make tees, greens and fairways. Overall, Old Marsh isn't a typical Florida course-The club, the caddies, the members and the maintenance staff (Jim Colo) are a cut about the rest and have a true feel for what golf is about.

« **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2003, 03:40:16 PM »

Gentlemen:

For those "southern types" who somehow believe my comments are put together out of Northeast bias I have this to say -- forget about it. I don't give courses in my "neck of the wood" any brownie points (for those who knoe me I'm even harder on those courses than others) -- it just so happens that the best overall golf architecture falls between the Phillie area and stretching through Beantown. That's not a wild supposition on my part -- it's recognized by just about most people who assess architectural greatness.

Let me also mention that Florida is simply a "way" station. You go there simply because you are likely to freezing your behind off. The flat land is what it is. Look, if it's fair game to say I'm out on left field then read "Confidential Guide" and see what the architect Tom Doak says. I concur with that.

Pat Mucci:

I don't doubt there are exceptional clubs in Florida -- but when you add in the fact that the state has over 1,000 courses the very minimal number one can mention as "exceptional" is very, very small indeed. You are blessed to play Boca Rio and Pine Tree as a continual basis. The rest of those who play golf don't have the luxury.

hp@hc:

I can't stand trees as well and if you have paid attention to my past comments on GCA I am in complete agreement
with many who post that say more and more trees need to be cut -- especially for layouts that are in the Northeast.

I made it a point in a column in Jersey Golfer to cite how much more can be done to such Garden State layouts as Alpine, Ridgewood and a few others where the issue of bowling-alley treed fairways are the rule rather than the exception.

Rob:

Where's the generalization my friend? How many "exceptional" courses do you really believe exist in Florida? Please tell me how many would crack a top 100 or top 200 in the USA. Sure, you can name Seminole and at best a few others (i.e. TPC / Stadium, World Woods / Pine Barrens, Black Diamond / Quarry and in my mind Ocean Hammock) but I don't see the rest pushing out those from other areas of the country.

I have been coming to the state for well over 30 years and played a good sampling and truth be told it's the same old story -- overly watered super softy bermuda fairways and the absolute reliance on the aerial game. Heaven forbid you hit a chip just off the green and think it might run through the grass and onto the putting surface.

Heck, if you like to put on grainy greens that have no consistency please knock yourself out. I don't doubt there are a few courses of exceptional quality and I mentioned a few of them. But, the Sunshine State is flat land with the overdosing of water hazards thrown in to boot. If you want to cure any sleeping issue just play golf in Florida day after day after day and you'll match Rip Van Winkle.

Lou Duran:

I gave no quarter to your home state of Texas for the longest of times too until my most recent visit when I had the opportunity to play:

Dallas National
Cimarron Hills
The Rawls Course at Texas Tech

You know this Lou -- most of Texas is simply the same thing as Florida -- save for the plethora of H20 hazards that are the linchpin of Sunshine State golf. That's not meant as an insult but it so happens to be true. I'm glad the newest of new courses seem to be making a change in that perception.

I would urge you and others to remember this -- GCA is about highlighting architectural wonders. Why does the bar get lowered simply because one happens to be in Florida? Tom Doak said it best in "Confidential Guide." I simply agree with him.

I enjoy golf where there IS some sort of topgraphy. For those who mentioned central Florida I have played a number of layouts there and do concur about Black Diamond, World Woods and Innisbrook (Copperhead), to name just three.

The key aspect to keep in mind is this: Florida is dominated by an overwheling number of courses that are simply dullsville from an architectural perspective. To say the state is loaded to the gills with exceptionally designed layouts speaks to the limited portfolio of the person claiming that fact IMHO.

I also have a pet peeve against bermuda as a playing surface. It's rarely cropped as close as it should be and when the grain becomes the dominant nature of putting then you have nothing more than a poke and hope type event.

Florida is like your "favorite" mother-in-law -- you tolerate her because it runs in the family (in Florida's case it's because of the weather). Just remember this -- when the weather improves by just a bit in the Northeast and Midwest the "golfers" (not those who simply play golf) RUN BACK HOME ASAP.

« **Reply #21 on:** November 15, 2003, 04:19:21 PM »

Matt Ward.

I'm in total agreement with you, but you're being a tad hard on hp@hc. I don't think anyone knows where to get Jersey Golfer, except at a rare and used bookstore or something. No fair quoting from what few have seen.

« **Reply #22 on:** November 15, 2003, 05:01:41 PM »

SS1,
You can find "JerseyGolfer" right next to Matt's other mag, "GatorGolfer".

« **Reply #23 on:** November 15, 2003, 07:19:43 PM »

Matt,
You asked Rob:

Quote

Please tell me how many would crack a top 100 or top 200 in the USA

Using Golf Magazine's Top 100 shows Fla with 7, NY with 11, NJ with 4 and Ca with 7.
I would guess that any of the above courses that made this list could be considered exceptional. Florida only gets topped by NY and ties Ca.

Another remark of yours:

Quote

Florida is like your "favorite" mother-in-law -- you tolerate her because it runs in the family (in Florida's case it's because of the weather). Just remember this -- when the weather improves by just a bit in the Northeast and Midwest the "golfers" (not those who simply play golf) RUN BACK HOME ASAP.

Did you read this before you posted it? Did you consider the fact that the people who run back to these states LIVE THERE?

If you've gone to Fla for 30 or more years and still can't find courses you could like than I suggest you should look elsewhere.

As LLoyd Bentsen said to Dan Quayle........

« **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2003, 10:19:27 PM »

I guess some people would rather stay up north for the winter and watch endless reruns of the "Big Break" on the Golf Channel for the next five months. Let us know when the snow melts how it all turned out.

Golf in Florida in the winter is great fun even if the ground is flat.

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