[Mindy]

Hello all of you historians and history buffs, I am searching for information about Herbert Fowler, he designed my home course Del Paso in Sacramento. I am a member of the green committee and have been designated as the person to research the history of the course. I'll take anything I can or information as to where I can go to find out more about Fowler. Thanks for the help, Mindy

[Tommy_Naccarato]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mindy,
-What type of historical information is Kyle Phillips working off of?
-Is he working off of old photos?
-What type of historical documentation does the club have? --Is he making changes in strategy to the original design or is he just saying he is going to remodel the holes to look like a older classic course?
-What is the actual feelings of the green committee regarding the course? Do they want it exactly like it was? Do they want holes changed. Are there opposing factions of green committee members and the actual members of the club?

[Chris_Clouser]

Mindy,

You may try getting a copy of the new club history of Walton Heath, a Fowler design in England.  I believe it is called Heaven and Heather.  It is available via Grant Books.  My guess is that will have ample information about Fowler in the piece.

Chris

[Peter Galea]

Contact the Secretary at Walton Heath. They have a  Fowler museum. They were very helpful and happy to talk to me, when I was researching Crystal Springs in Burlingame.

[Jay Carstens]

William "Bill" Herbert Fowler:
5/28/1856 Tottenham, Middlesex-4/13/41 Chelsea, London

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I thought Eastward Ho was the only Herbert Fowler course in the US.

[Chris_Clouser]

Fowler also did the first course at Los Angeles Country Club I believe.  I think I read somewhere that he did about 10 courses in the US.  

Tom MacWood,

Is that correct?

[T_MacWood]

Chris
The redesign of LACC's old course and the design of a new course was the main reason for his trip I believe. That sounds about right...around ten or a little over ten.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mindy- Your posts inspired me to read the "architects" link to the left and read about Fowler's Eastward Ho. Just from that one page I sense that Fowlers minimalism (use of existing features) would be remarkable in the Sacramento area.


IS your course primarily minimalistic? Somewhere you mentioned a "thinning out of trees". Has that been a passive effort or was there a clear intention of restoring the playing angles?
Could you tell us about your course and describe what you like about it so much? Please.

[Yancey_Beamer]

C&W,
California
Ambassador Hotel GC (NLE) 1921
Burlingame CC with Harold Sampson 1920
Crystal Springs GC 1920
Los Angeles CC (South Course) 1911
Massachusetts
Eastward Ho!CC(1922)

Remodeled or  Expanded
California
Del Paso CC (R1921)
Lincoln Park Muni(R9A9 1922)
Menlo CC (R)
Old Del Monte G&CC (R9A9;1912;R 1923)
Presidio GC (R1921)
Riverside GC(R)
Sacramento CC(R.,NLE)
SequoyahCC(R)
Pennsylvania
Allegheny CC (R.A.3 1922)
(Also lengthened the 18th hole at Pebble Beach)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mindy,

What I find fascinating is that you have been the one designated to research Fowler for your club, when Cliff Henry has already stated that the club is embarking on a project that captures the TRUE SPIRIT of Fowler's work.

Does something seem out of sorts, or is it me.

Noone at your club knows about Fowler.
They designate you to research Fowler,
But, they've already made the decision to alter a Fowler golf course in the TRUE SPRIT of Fowler's work.

Perhaps the directive to have you research Fowler should have been fulfilled before the club embarked on a potential disfiguration of your golf course.

It sounds like the cart before the horse to me, but what do I know ??

[Daniel_Wexler]

Good call, Pat.

DW

[SPDB]

Pat - Here is the thrust I was getting at in my posts on the other thread. I'll annotate your message.

Mindy,

What I find fascinating is that you have been the one designated to research Fowler for your club, when Cliff Henry has already stated that the club is embarking on a project that captures the TRUE SPIRIT of Fowler's work.

This much we know. What that means isn't clear.

Does something seem out of sorts, or is it me.

It could be one or the other, or both, i.e. things could in sorts, making it you. The best we can answer at this point is maybe.

Noone at your club knows about Fowler.

Where do you get this from?
And is it possible that Phillips has/is doing thorough research and not leaving it to the members to instruct him?

They designate you to research Fowler,

But, they've already made the decision to alter a Fowler golf course in the TRUE SPRIT of Fowler's work.

You've supplied "alter."  For all we know when they say "true spirit," they may mean sympathetic restoration that would make Gil Hanse blush.

Perhaps the directive to have you research Fowler should have been fulfilled before the club embarked on a potential disfiguration of your golf course.

Is it not possible that she has done this research and is merely looking for supplementary research?

Why do you assume that she's done no research as yet?
And, again, why do you assume there is disfiguration taking place? Without any knowledge of what is going on how can you state this as affirmatively as you do?

It sounds like the cart before the horse to me, but what do I know ??

In this instance, you may know very little.

All I am trying to do is prevent people from jumping to premature conclusions. It's a habit many of us have on here, and I think it hurts the site's collective credibility. She's looking for help, and she and cliff are getting a dressing down. This site has been referred by others to me as "extreme" and this whole episode is probably a good illustration why.

I know what you are trying to get at - that due diligence is critical to guaranteeing a successful restoration. However, there is no evidence that that hasn't been done by either the membership, committee or, most importantly, Phillips.

I also know about your experience with club politics and renegade green committees but that doesn't mean you can presume that is taking place at Del Paso.

My $.02, could be wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

On some issues, it's rare when I ask a question that I don't already know the answer to the question I've posed.

I certainly haven't dressed down Mindy or Cliff.
I asked questions critical to the core of the issue.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass with you, but I think what you're missing, here, and at other club/s we've discussed on this site is the following.

A club, especially a classic club, should have a complete, a thorough understanding of their golf course, its history, its architecture and its architect before embarking on any project that will alter the golf course.

After the club collectively understands all of the above, they have to ask themselves, what do they want to accomplish, and why, and are these prudent goals in light of the above ?

Then and only then should they retain an architect.

And, as part of that retention process, they should provide clear direction to the architect of what they want to achieve.

The absolute worst scenario is that a club doesn't know what it wants, invites competing bids/concepts from different architects, and chooses the most appealing presentation,(appealing can be defined in a variety of contexts) and proceeds to disfigure their golf course FOREVER

I suspect that the prefered path has not been taken with respect to DEL PASO.

All too often, clubs embark down this path unprepared, get in over their heads, but, due to ego, political and financial reasons, can't stop the freight train heading down the wrong track, and the inevitable wreck that must follow.

[SPDB]

Pat - We've talked about this enough times for you to know that I would argue with none of what you say. Its a reasonable and responsible way to do it. Don't forget who was on your side months ago when you were making the argument that the finger should be pointed at the committee and not the architect.

I think I raise fair issues, though, as it relates to Del Paso, and, also how the reaction that these threads offers a pretty good picture of how this site is sometimes viewed. It doesn't have to be that way, and that's the only thing I'm talking about. Bear in mind I'm not directing this at you specifically. Nevertheless, I don't have as much of a problem with the questions you raise, so much as the presumptions you have drawn which were not in question form.  

You say here that you "suspect that the preferred path has not been taken at DEL PASO" which seems to suggest you can't marshall any FACTS for support. However, on the other thread you seem intimate that you 1) are totally unfamiliar with the course, but 2) know some FACTS about the work at Del Paso. I'm confused. How about letting me in on your knowledge, so we can end this back and forth.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I don't have as much of a problem with the questions you raise, so much as the presumptions you have drawn which were not in question form.  

You say here that you "suspect that the preferred path has not been taken at DEL PASO" which seems to suggest you can't marshall any FACTS for support. However, on the other thread you seem intimate that you 1) are totally unfamiliar with the course, but 2) know some FACTS about the work at Del Paso. I'm confused. How about letting me in on your knowledge, so we can end this back and forth.

I have the facts.
I was being coy.

[SPDB]

let's have 'em.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I've promised not to disclose them on a public forum.

Suffice it to say that both Tommy Naccarato and I are well versed regarding the facts relating to the project.

Ask yourself, if 14 out of 18 holes are being destroyed and redesigned, how is that true to Fowler's work ?
And, for what purpose is this project being undertaken ?

I've always maintained that the club is the primary caretaker of their golf course, and this club is about to disfigure their current course in the guise of creating a "championship" golf course.

What I don't understand is how any membership could spend
between 3-10 million dollars, in this economy, in this declining golf environment.  

[ForkaB]

P{at

If you (and Tommy and whoever) "know" some "facts" but don't want to tell us about them, just keep quiet.  Self-serving secrecy bores the hell out of most of us

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich, go tot the other thread and read my post from about 1:00am this morning--that's pretty much all you need to know.

Any help on Fowler would be appreciated.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

Sorry, but I've read all your posts on both threads and don't see anything of substance.  I know very little about Fowler, but I don't see any evidence that you do either.  I was hoping to learn something on this thread, but I am largely disappointed, with the minor exception of Tom MacWood enlightening us that Del Paso was in Sacramento, for which I appreciate his tireless scholarship.

Cheers

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich,
I don't see where I have said I'm the most apt scholar on Fowler, nor do I portray it. Not much is known about Fowler other then the typical Kyle Phillips response, "I've played Cruden Bay and Walton Heath, therfore I'm in tune with his work."--speech that so many architects like to use when courting their clientele.

That's why I'm asking YOU to help understand it. With you being much closer the large body of Fowler's work, you mean to tell me you aren't going to at least try to help research this with us? We can use the help. Or, is this just one of those things where it's all about criticizing those who are trying to unearth information for the sheer entertaiment factor and enjoyment of your Golf Club Atlas experience?

Rich, Join us in our quests, and who knows what we'll all find out!

[SPDB]

Rich is correct (and even more correct on the companion thread   ).

If you have facts disclose them. On the other hand, if you have made a promise to not disclose them on a public forum, then do not retreat to your fact storehouse to selectively disclose self-serving facts which you have promised to keep to yourself.  How you comply with a promise is up to you, but understand that it is manifestly unfair for us to engage in a discussion about Del Paso when you can rebut points I make based on secret knowledge.

On one thread you claim total unfamiliarity with the course and then subsequently say you were being coy. I suspect that the unfamiliarity you expressed was a true statement at the time, and only later did you accrue facts. Not the sort of standard to which you typically hold yourself, and, more importantly, others, and consistent with the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality that motivated my initial post.

I only ask that these discussions be guided by civility and respect for what Del Paso decides to do. I also made the point that these threads illustrate the "extremism" that many people think characterizes this site. Self-determination of a club is sacrosanct, an idea I think even you would have  difficulty objecting to. I know little about what is going on at Del Paso, maybe it would help me if I knew more, but frankly, it really is irrelevant as far as my argument is concerned.

A while back you directed this comment at me:

In addition you're ducking behind third party references, posturing them as fact, but when pressed for substantiation, you respond that you were only repeating what someone else may have alleged or heard..... hearsay.

Pretty good advice wouldn't you say?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I don't think I have an obligation to reveal everything I know, especially if I've been asked to limit my discussion beyond a certain point.

I can selectively disclose whatever my sources deem appropriate for disclosure.  Since you don't possess any of the facts, I don't view your advice on what I can or can't reveal as relevant.

I suspect that your real objection is that you're in the dark on most of this issue, and Tommy Naccarato and I aren't, and thus arguing on your part only makes your position look....
foolish  

I did give you good advice, and I hope you took it,
I can assure you that my sources are extremely reliable, and not based on hearsay.

[RJ_Daley]

I'm sorry fellows, but I can't say I have learned a darn thing about one; Herbert Fowler, either.  Heck, there aren't a lot of courses of his in the US that one could go and study.  I am not aware of any articles he had written, or books published. Can anyone cite something, or provide a link or something?  I haven't a clue what the design heritage of Fowler might be.  It seems that Walton Heath was a big starter for his career and then a lapse of time before he took up with partners.  Was there something about Fowler that was innovative?

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