Is the 15th at Cypress one on the most underated Par 3's?

« **on:** October 29, 2003, 12:33:34 PM »

This quote is from Geoff's book The Art of Golf Design:

The sixteenth hole is always the most anticipated adventure at Cypress Point, but the preceding fifteenth is maybe more fun for players of all skill levels because at least it is within reach at only 140 yards. Who can argue that this hole does not derive much of its excellence from its beautiful setting? But MacKenzie expressed concern and considered it less than ideal because little strategy was injected into this remarkable green complex. Thus, he created a right side hole location near where Miller has located the flagstick in his depiction.

The picture is from the book as well but can also be seen to on this website.

With the flag short and right it really does seem to become a fantastic hole. The flag would really tempt many of us to try and work out that exact yardage would it not?

Is that not the sign of a great hole...temptation?

Brian

« **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2003, 01:30:54 PM »

Brian,

I do not think it is overrated nor underrated. It is considered one of the great short par threes in golf and it is. On the "Best four hole stretch in the US" thread, the winner with the most votes is 14-17 at CPC. #15 is one of the reasons that this wins. In addition, after finishing on #15, a golfer has one of the real magic walks in golf to the 16th tee.

« **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2003, 01:39:02 PM »

I thought the hole was intimidating or at least that's the image it wants to give off. The look is of a green completly surrounded by bunkers with very little room for any bailing. To most, if not all, the uninitiated can only hope to forget about the ring of sand, and with a nice smoothie the shot is not that difficult. But this does not take away one ioda from the setting and the anticipation of moments to come, in a very short time.

« **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:05:45 PM »

This hole suffers from penultimacy (a word, no?) and the fact that the cove to be traversed is always beautifully depicted in print but is not at all visible from the lower tee. Visually the hole is nowhere close to the intimidating green-site in Miller's work.

The risk/return for the tucked right-hand hole location is disproportionate. I suspect even the better player would take a three and move on.

In summary, it is an outstanding golf hole, but not because of strategic merit.

Regards,

Mike

« **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:13:46 PM »

It's kind of hard to call a hole underrated that made a respected golf magazine's top 18 on the planet, as this one did and the hole following it did not....

And I'd also say that assessment is pretty much right on. And no, it does not need wind to be great.

But then again, I could be wrong and Schmidt and Goodale could be right. But it also might snow here today.

It's a great hole. So is the next one. So is the one before it.

But haven't we discussed this about 500 times already?

TH

« **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:26:03 PM »

Hucks,

You probably have discussed it 500 times. However, I have never been there and was looking through Geoff's book again and it just got me thinking.

If it is just the view that is what makes the hole then it is overated.

Brian

« **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:32:54 PM »

Given the choice of Pebble Beach #7 or Cypress Point #15, I would choose PB #7.

It has a MUCH smaller target.

Both require wind to make a great challenge.

PB is a little baby wedge in calm conditions and CPC is a 9 iron. Not much difference there.

Putting on both is tricky.

I don't think CPC #15 is under-rated at all. It is certainly a teriffic golf hole in a spectacular setting but is it really a step above many others including #2 at Kingsley Club?

« **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:38:14 PM »

Brian:

No hassles, my bad. We just have had this war a few times already, Schmidt and I...

And I'm on the side of it being rated just about right, when it's put in the top 18 holes on the planet. Of course I'd put 16 in there also....

WHY? I'll put it to those who disrespect it and say why not?

It's just the most beautiful hole on the planet, it has an incredible green in terms of its shape, with several very tough usable pins, the bunkering is majestic, inspired, gorgeous... it sure as hell is tempting if they use the right-side pin, which is very usable even today...

It's just a great golf hole through and through, and the length of it matters not to me. And for such an "easy" hole, I sure as heck have seen way more scores over par than under in my trips through, with stalwarts from this forum...

As for it being a step above other short holes to which it is compared, perhaps it's the combination of everything that makes it so... that is, Kingsley #2 might surpass it in some ways, but it sure as hell doesn't in terms of setting, so the overall nod goes to CPC because it's close enough in the other factors...

Would it be so bad that the setting puts it over the top?

TH

« **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:48:19 PM »

How good is 15? Even with no wind it can jump up and get you. A slight push and you are over the cliff, a slight pull and you have a downhill lie in the left hand bunker. Ask Lou Duran about the hole. He came off No.14 at 4 under par and took a double here in rather benign conditions.

Is it easier than Pebble's 7th, I am not so sure.

« **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:03:54 PM »

The one criticism I've heard about #15 is that it only allows one route of play. But considering that it's such a short hole, I've often wondered if the same criteria for "great holes" should always apply to Par 3 holes. If you're standing there with a 7-9 iron, how many ways should you be allowed to play the hole?

« **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:27:24 PM »

Brian

I recall the story about Pebble #7 where the conditions dictated that a putter hit down the hill and into the front bunker was the best play!

Bob- No disrespect was intended for what is clearly an all-world short one shotter. I've played PB many more times then CPC so I've had occasion to play #7 in a good breeze and when it is calm as can be. The target size shrinks so much with that tiny green that the shot becomes a real case of survival.

We played #15 at CPC in enough of a stiff breeze that Huckaby looked like a puffy blow up doll and even #13 was a stern 3 shotter. We all hit the green on #15 with 9 irons even with the strong crosswind coming off the ocean. Obviously this limited experience can't be too reliable but the shot seemed to have a more realistic target in tough conditions. Obviously, I could be wrong.

« **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:32:55 PM »

Somehow I knew that incredible picture would surface here... My God that guy is handsome.

GC, I seem to recall not everyone hitting the green that day. But then again, I too could be wrong.

I've also had the great fortune to play it in calm conditions also, and well... let's just say I don't want my life depending on hitting that green. I guess you guys are more precise iron players than I am - I've never found that to be a very easy shot. The green's pretty small and with the typical dead air, it's 8 iron for me... I hit 7 that day with you...

As for #7 PB, that's a tough call. I am a big fan of that hole also... I could sure live with an assessment giving #7 PB the nod. No hassle there at all.

I just do wonder about those who call 15 CPC an easy golf hole. Just what is tough for you?

TH

« **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:47:19 PM »

Great picture of #15 (apologies to the handsome guy..)

From that angle, the first thing that jumped out at me was that you have a view of the 16th green. Having never played CPC, I'm curious about how much that starts to get into your head when playing #15.

« **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:54:38 PM »

Tom Tom Tom

I never once said it was an easy hole. I never said it was not a world-class fantastic par 3. It is of course. I'm just being a troublemaker as anyone at my home course could attest.

However, its setting as YOU said is what places it apart from all others.

I thought I would simply spice up the discussion a bit and put some playability factors into the equasion by a comparison with PB7 and even Kingsley #2.

I recall your iron play being far better then mine on the majority of times we've played together. I recall me being on the mid right part of the green, you sort of back left along with Mike H's first swing of the day. Cirba I don't recall and Lou I believe hit the green too.

As far as what is tough for me. Well the next hole #16 is certainly one of them!

« **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:56:35 PM »

Brian:

For anyone with a soul, thoughts of #16 start as soon as you get the invitation to play there. By the time you reach 15 tee, the reality of it is kind of overwhelming. What tends to keep one grounded is that 15 is so good, one just has to focus on that...

Then the walk from 15 green to 16 tee has been described many times on here. It truly is the greatest walk in golf. Yes, you do catch a glimpse of 16 green from 15 tee, so even besides the obvious you know it's there... But then the trees hide it... You walk a bit further, emerge from the trees and....

WOW!

It is pretty mind-blowing.

TH

« **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:59:32 PM »

GC:

OK, no hassles. We are closer apart than we think on this.

I just do remember SOMEONE missing the green... maybe it was one of the other times there.

I also three-jacked that day with you, so there's at least one over par! I believe I've three-putted that hole more than I haven't. See why I find it tougher than other people seem to?

As for what places it apart above others, my thought remains that it's as good as any short par 3 in terms of shot values... then the setting is just what puts it over the top. Given how incredible the setting is, my question is what's wrong with assessing it that way?

TH

« **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2003, 04:05:59 PM »

Tom

Nothing wrong with the way you are assessing the situation at all. Even Ran himself (wherever he is these days

) always asks where would you rather play day in and day out for fun and enjoyment and uses this criteria to select a Maidstone or Yeamons Hall over a Bethpage Black. Who can argue with that personal choice.

BTW- Your new nickname is now Yogi and you are an honorary NY Yankee.

"We are closer apart than we think on this"

« **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2003, 04:07:47 PM »

That is a great Yogi-ism. Funny how 75% of my putts that I leave short don't go in also.

Yeah, I think I could be happy playing 15 CPC every day...

But then again, 7PB wouldn't be so bad either!

TH

« **Reply #18 on:** October 29, 2003, 08:03:51 PM »

Brian,
Yogi Huckaby nailed thoughts of #16 just right, it is in your thoughts from the moment you know you are going there. The walk through the tunnel of cypress trees is indeed one of THE great ones in golf the first time through.
Geoffrey is right about #2 at Kingsley. It is one of the best short par 3's I've played.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2003, 09:34:45 AM »

Mr. Schmidt:

The magazine for which our host here is a rater evaluated #15 at CPC as one of earth's greatest 18 holes, when it did a list of such a couple years ago.

I can live with their assessment.

But since it is so mundane for you, next time you just skip the hole and we'll give you a 3. We wouldn't want to waste your time. Nope, no stopping to take pictures is allowed either. You just march your "the shot is too easy" ass from 14 green, up to the clubhouse and then down to 16 tee. Have a drink while you're up there, the rest of us might take awhile enjoying a fabulous golf hole. We'll see ya on 16, where we won't be laying up.

TH

« **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2003, 10:05:10 AM »

Herr Schmidt- I must confess to witnessing another example of you NOT appreciateing the breather parts, intregal to flow. Please consider that a holes difficulty is only part of the ebb.

GC- Keep up the spice...but,

Comparing #7 w/ # 15 may not be all that fair. 15 is comparitively wide and measures distance accuracy, above all. #7 can be viewed as the narrowest shot on the planet (Somedays), testing distance(depending on the greens firmness), horizontal, spatial, conditional and any other form of accuracy.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2003, 10:13:55 AM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on October 30, 2003, 09:34:45 AM

Mr. Schmidt:

...But since it is so mundane for you, next time you just skip the hole and we'll give you a 3. We wouldn't want to waste your time. Nope, no stopping to take pictures is allowed either. You just march your "the shot is too easy" ass from 14 green, up to the clubhouse and then down to 16 tee. Have a drink while you're up there, the rest of us might take awhile enjoying a fabulous golf hole. We'll see ya on 16, where we won't be laying up.

TH

One of the great comments of the year!!! Thank you for reminding Schmidt again that golf has a soul. It is not all about degrees of difficulty. That is why he does not get Raynor or Mackenzie. Let's leave Schmidt, Shooter and the other "If it is not a 138+ slope, its not worth playing" types to their Art Hills forced carry, 18 hole-5 hour death marches to 84, while we appreciate the finer things in golf like arguably the best setting for a short par three on the planet.

« **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2003, 10:20:11 AM »

Makes sense to me, David W. What's funny is that a guy who claims to love shortish courses like Pasa and Rye can't seem to find the soul in a short par 3, even one with such a spectacular setting, and in such a perfect place in the golf round given the difficulties of the holes prior and subsequent to it....

But then again, who among us doesn't have a paradoxical skeleton or two in our closets?

TH

« **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2003, 10:35:16 AM »

Adam

You make my point for me by a better description of the playability of the two holes. I did not mean to put down any of them at all. Given the great diversity of conditions of play on the Monterey Peninsula, the shot into PB #7 can be easier perhaps in calm conditions but as tough as they come if there is any breeze approaching normal/average conditions. Not to say that difficulty = better but only to place CPC #15 within the same or similar class as other outstanding short one shotters. PB #7 shares the same or similar setting. Holes like Kingsley #2, Troon #8 (postage stamp), Myopia Hunt #9 don't share the setting but can compete or perhaps even surpass on their basic architecture. That was my entire point.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2003, 10:39:25 AM »

I love the fact that I am now your bottom quote, GC.

But the more I read re how you look at this, the more my quote makes sense, if that is possible! (and note I am living with my mangling of what I truly meant to type, because it's cool to me how the mind works... why the hell I typed that I'll never know...

)

So put CPC #15 in a hopper with all those other great short par 3's. I can live with that.

Add the setting, and then voila... we have arguably one of the world's best 18 golf holes.

So the setting does set it apart... and just what is wrong with that?

TH

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