[Tom_Doak]

This morning I received a fax from a friend who is a member of Cypress Point, asking for a photo of the 15th hole for a friend of his who had a hole-in-one there.

He said they had gone out to play the "whisky route" late in the afternoon -- playing holes 1, then 14 thru 18 -- but then had to finish the eighteen so the ace would be official.

In all these years it had never dawned on me that Cypress Point members could just go out in the evening and play those oceanfront holes over again.  Could it get any better than that?

[Mike_Sweeney]

There is a sign (forgot to take a picture) as you cross 17 Mile Drive over to 15 from 14 about how it is a Misdemeanor for trespassing on CPC. We all thought to ourselves, misdemeanor !, hey that is no big deal.

Fortunately or unfortunately, our flashbacks to youthful enthusiasm gave way to respect for our host.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

What didn't dawn on you about that? That there wasn't room to get back out on the course, that the members wouldn't think to do something like, be allowed to do something like that or that those holes could be so easily played like that in that truncated sequence or "set"?

If it was the latter I'd say "BAABABOOM" and "KASHAM" because that concept, in my opinion, opens the door to something in architcecture that just may be the "next level" in golf architecture--that being the concept of "courses within a course"!

I look at that really interesting concept of "courses within a course" in two very separate applications.

The first being where members can play the course easily in various interesting and generally truncated and shortened sequences of existing holes, probably best described as little hole sequences or "sets". But obviously to be able to do that effectively a club and course has to have a few things first. One, generally some pretty light play as obviously courses like CPC and GMGC, my course, does. The second thing is a type of routing configuration and basically probably also some pretty tight green to tee commutes that allows it easily and seamlessly in various routing sequences or "sets".

Wayne and I in researching for this book on Flynn have noticed a plethora of this sort of thing on so many of his courses. At first we wondered if it may just be coincidence but then we started seeing it on so many courses in so many different ways we began to believe he must have seen it or even designed (routed) for it. Maybe he didn't even notice it, maybe he did a little or maybe he did totally. The fact that we see him as possibly one of the real routing geniuses of all time is leading us to believe he probably saw all of it!

And then we found that he actually wrote about it. He explained it as the desirability of having members come out perhaps later in the day and be able to play some interesting little "sets" of holes with real convience of routing if they had limited time.

I think the ability of a golf course to have these truncated little "sets" of holes is fascinating and we've seen it in interesting ways and in various site specific applications at PCC, Shinnecock, Kittansett, Lancaster and perhaps most of the others once we study those routings for that purpose as we have those named.

Again, maybe that kind of thing is just coincidence and the result of certain types of routing configurations but maybe not.

The second type of "courses within a course" is one of not just playing individual holes in a different routing sequence but actually playing them or designing them so that they play really well, really varied and interesting as composites of  holes.

Think about that. That basically would not even require that a course have light play, as so few do today--that could allow a golf course to play as another course or even many "courses within a course" by entire memberships differently on different days--although obviously on any one day they'd all have to be playing it the same way. Naturally that type of thing would require a particular type of land and probably topography and also necessarily pretty much a minimum of trees, certainly in those areas that could "composite" various holes.

And I'd assume that'd take a huge amount of imagination and a ton of routing and design work to do successfully. But the final kicker to me would be if it could also be done in such a way that basically no golfer would even notice the possibility of another course in another sequence of composite form when playing any one way. I call that the "Rohrshach" effect--eg you see one thing but not the other(s) in it.

Can you imagine one course that could be played in various sequences and/or even multiple composite hole sequenes where you might have something different and really interesting that the members would be able to play each day differently for each day of the week? That could be the next level because I don't know if that type of thing has ever been designed on purpose (although Thomas once tried it in LA) and even if so if a golf club ever really thought it all through and put it into effect. But why not--the possibilities are multiple and certainly interesting?

[herrstein]

There's another thread on Lookout Mountain now, which makes me realize in reading this one that there are dozens of ways in which we play that course.
First, there are the front 12 and back 6.
Then, "the perimeter:" 1,2,5,6,7,8,9,16,17,18.
Then, "the inside:" 13, 14, 15, 9, 10, 11, 12.
Also common: 1-6, 11,12.
Sometimes: 13, from 14 tee to 6 green, 7, 8, 16, 17, 18. This one features three par threes.
Frequent 4 holer: 1,2,3,12.
frequent three holer: 13,14, 18. Used with three balls to constitute 9 holes in 25 minutes.
There are countless more permutations to allow for every possible time frame and gambling preference.

[George Pazin]

The first being where members can play the course easily in various interesting and generally truncated and shortened sequences of existing holes, probably best described as little hole sequences or "sets". But obviously to be able to do that effectively a club and course has to have a few things first. One, generally some pretty light play as obviously courses like CPC and GMGC, my course, does. The second thing is a type of routing configuration and basically probably also some pretty tight green to tee commutes that allows it easily and seamlessly in various routing sequences or "sets".

I got DQ'd from Jeremy Glenn's design competition a few months back for utilizing this concept without permission! He stated one of the rules for the competition was that they had to be able to open one 9 while the other 9 was under construction & that I didn't provide for returning nines so I violated this rule & was unofficially DQ'd. I pointed out that my course had several different 9 hole loops (& this was intentional on my part, not an accident), but he didn't seem to buy it. Where were you defending me then, Tom P?   You could have used your Flynn evidence to bail me out!

As for the second type of "course within a course," I've got that one covered, too - I'll have to see if I can find my old routing....

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

Thanks for bringing back fond memories.  At Rolling Hills CC (actually a converted cotton field) in Ripley, Tennessee nos. 1, 4, and 7 (a par 5, 3 and 4) returned to the clubhouse (actually a freestanding metal building).  Growing up Dad and I often played that loop with one club and a putter, and occasionally, putter only.  The original Ram Zebra was highly effective in such competitions.  

Still haven't been over to Hillwood to see the work of Bruce et al but hope to in the near future.

Regards,

Mike

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Doak:

I'll admit I hadn't thought of that combination either, but you are right: I'm quite envious.

Years ago I used to admire the boys in Ballybunion for a variety of 5-6 hole spins they would enjoy late in the evening - right before playing the long 19th hole!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom & TE,

GCGC has three such loops, a three holer, five holer and a nine holer.

1, 2, and 18

1, 2, 3, 17, and 18

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 15, 16, 17, and 18.

About a month ago, I started off Eagle, Birdie, Birdie, and strongly considered playing # 17 and # 18 in, ala Woody Platt, but, it was such a gorgeous day, and I was playing so well, that I had to continue.  Unfortunately, I reached the 10th tee even par.  I almost eagled # 17 and parred # 18.

I should have played the second loop, gone in, had a drink, and considered starting all over again.... golfing or drinking.

[Bill_McBride]

More on inside loops - the Valley Club of Montecito has a road which you cross after #2, whose green is directly adjacent to the #13 tee.   Many members play the inside 9, which is #1, #2, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #17A I guess which is a short hole played from the 18th tee, and #18 played from the front tee.  It makes for a good 90 minute late truncated round.  Since #15, a par 5 with great set of "spectacles" bunkers, ends directly below the clubhouse, a 5 hole round is also possible.  The 9 plays to par of 37 with two par 3s and thrree par 5s.  Included is one of the toughest par 4's anywhere, the lengthy #16 which doglegs around a dangerous set of bunkers to a green which slopes steeply right to left.  A lot of play on that hole is from short right after avoiding the bunkers left, so pitches from that side are quite difficult.  Excellent design, great hole!

[ACR]

My home course as a kid was Blacksburg CC in Blacksburg, VA (home of the now, tragically, 6-1 Hokies).  It was a beautiful, but average course.  However, for a kid, it had one fantastic feature: holes 5, 9, 12, 16 and 18 all returned to the clubhouse.  Therefore, in the evenings, you could play any # of holes that you wanted from 2 up to 18.  I probably played the 5 hole loop (1-5) or the three hole loop (10-12) or the two hole loop (17-18) more often than any real 9- or 18-hole round.

Other good "whiskey" routes are (or would be if they let you do it):

14-18 at Merion

10-14 or 15-18 at Oakmont

6-9 at Wade Hampton (although it is all by cart, which sort of defeats the purpose)

1,2,8,9 at Wilmington CC (South)

1,7-9 or 1-3,16-18 at World Woods PB

Several at Pasatiempo

Several at Linville CC

And, given the shared greens, all sorts of combinations at TOC

Art

[Marty Bonnar]

You boys, somewhat inadvertently, have stumbled upon the answer to the ultimate question...

How do we extract maximum value out of TOC?

It is surely the best example of how a course could be divided up into mini-loops, so....

The standard Green Fee is £105 (phew!)

So it follows, if you wanted to play:

1 and 18 it should cost 1/9 = £11
1,2,17,18 = £23
1,2,3,16,17,18 = £35
1,2,3,4,15,16,17,18 = £46
1,2,3,4,5,14,15,16,17,18 = £58
1,2,3,4,5,6,13,14,15,16,17,18 = £70
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 = £81
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 = £93

This is Genius...okay there might be 'minimal conflict' between incoming and outgoing parties, but that would only add to the unique TOC atmosphere, wouldn't it? Think of the sheer numbers of bodies we could churn!!!

Somebody call the Links Trust NOW!

Martin.

[RJ_Daley]

Here is another place where technology can be used to extend the intended limitations of the golf course, or in this case the legal constraints of trespassing.  Get some of those military nightvision goggles and play the the vorbotten holes at about 2-3Am!

[Lou_Duran]

Could those with legal training do some research on the consequences of sacrificing a live chicken on the 16th tee prior to teeing off?  I would also like to start a small fire for my burnt offering to the angry Gods protecting that hole.  Any jail time involved?  I am checking on eBay at this time for the goggles (I sure hope that Tom Ridge doesn't take notice and mistake my intentions).

[Tony_Chapman]

In college, I worked at a golf course called Lochland in Hastings, NE and we had a fall outing every year for the members called "Cross Country Golf." We made a golf course on Friday and the members came on Saturday and played. It was usually a 13 or 14-hole course, that included at least one par-6 or 7 and a par-2. What fun we had.

I know it doesn't really pertain to this thread, but it sure was a blast. Seeing all the fun and different way people play course, I thought I would bring it up.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, the odd thing is that is what my buddy and I call it too. We do that each day, on an annual trip trip the last few years, the last hour or so before dark. Playing that stretch of holes in the late afternoon makes one thankful to be alive like few others.

[TEPaul]

"In all these years it had never dawned on me that Cypress Point members could just go out in the evening and play those oceanfront holes over again."

TomD;

I'm still not getting exactly what it is that never dawned on you. If those holes #1, #14-18 are just sitting out there as they have been for the last 70 some years and nobody is on all of them who really cares if the members, whiskied up or not, run on out there like a bunch of drunks or exuberant little children and play 'em again?  

Matter of fact, I think it should have occured to you that this is probably the real reason access is so very limited at CPC. Those members know they must strive to keep that course as clear of golfers as possible to preserve that instant inspiration while sitting in the clubhouse looking out over one of God's finest hours (just one of his finest hours, mind you, because Heidi Klum IS God's finest hour) to run out there and play some more holes--the best of which are #1, #14-18. Some actually might say #1, #14-17 but if you're out around #18 tee on a beautiful evening, even if you are whiskied up, what the hell, it'd probably be more laughs to just play up #18 instead of just walking back up it!  

[Kevin_Reilly]

Was CPC the course where Bing Crosby used to play a whiskey route?  I recall that there is some connection between his name and the phrase when applied to golf courses.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

Years ago a friend had a house to the right of the 11th green at Pebble. We would play 12,13,9,10 and finish at 11. A wonderful loop. Everyone remarks that 13 is a throw away hole, it's remarkable how many three putts it produces.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  Rest assured I have certainly thought about the general topic before; playing holes here and there at Pacific Dunes during grow-in was among the most fun experiences of my life, and we have thought through the possibilities at a number of the private courses we have laid out, including Lost Dunes and Harmony.  In fact, The Sheep Ranch, if it really existed, would be perhaps the ultimate expression of playing however many holes you wanted to.

I had just never thought about members of Cypress Point having such easy access to THOSE holes.  I'm sure their late-evening rituals have much to do with their security interests on that part of the course.

Makes me want to be a member of the place!

[A_Clay_Man]

I wager that the caddies appreciate it more than the members. They are allowed and even encouraged to golf the course. Naturally it isnt all the time but more often at off hours such as late afternoons. So you need not really be a member.

[Anthony_Nysse]

What about at Friar's 10,14-18...I think that would be tough to beat and just tough!!

[Joel_Stewart]

I wager that the caddies appreciate it more than the members. They are allowed and even encouraged to golf the course. Naturally it isnt all the time but more often at off hours such as late afternoons. So you need not really be a member.

Adam:
You are correct on this.  I played CPC a few weeks ago and when we arrived at the 15th tee I had a long talk with my caddie.  He said he also worked as a security guard at CPC during certain times of the year and he sits for hours on the original Mackenzie tee on 15 and just hit hundreds of balls trying to make a hole in one.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I'm lucky enough to also have several Cypress member friends.  They say that their fondest golfing experience at CPC include going out in the evening, carrying their bag and playing a few holes with wives, daughters, grandkids and even in cases, the dog.  It is funny they never say their fondest memories is playing with their buddies!  JC

[Brad Swanson]

Jonathon,
   It would be my ultimate golf dream to be able to play Cypress, or for that matter, just about anywhere with just me and my dog.  Every time I peruse Doak's Confidential Guide and see the lone golfer with his yellow lab (a spitting image of my Charlotte ) on the cover, I hope I'll be able to do the same someday.

Cheers,
Brad

[SteveTL]

Seems I remember reading that Bing Crosby's whiskey route was at Pebble - but I don't know the loop...  Where did the term Whiskey Route originate?

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