[johnk]

I played Mystic Dunes in Orlando last week and was stunned.  I don't think it gets any real attention here, but to me it seems to be excellent architecture in a modern package, and a really good sign for Florida.

Here's the deal with the architecture:
Very open driving.
Some interior hazards
Some partially blind approaches to
fantastically contoured greens surrounded by
huge chipping areas

A wide variety of hole shapes.  Overall, great balance and
very challenging and fun.  It's the kind of place that plays
harder once you know what you're getting into.

There is a wide set of options from the tees, but if you think too much about the slopes on the greens, you'll end up doing a lot chipping area activity.

So who did the work along with Gary Koch as the name?

Overall, a huge addition to the Orlando area -- which isn't really chock full of great stuff, IMHO.

Anyways, I'm surprised it's not discussed a bit more.

johnk

[John_Conley]

John:

You must have missed my post two years ago!!  I think it was called "Mystic Dunes: You guys will love it"

I have played there (separately) with Wiggles and Evan from the board and a handful of times with others.  Love the place.

[David Wigler]

Johnk,

I think Mystic Dunes does not get discussed for a couple of reasons that have to do mostly with comparative analysis.  Mystic Dunes IMO is very similar to Rustic Canyon in that it is a very solid effort in the middle of a public golf wasteland.  

Mystic blows away the Disney courses, is better than OCN's courses, etc.  The only public in that area that I think compares is Southern Dunes (I am not couting Bay Hill as Public).  Much like RC sits among no really worthy public golf in its 50 mile radius.  Most of the golfers here are very well traveled.  As much as I liked MD, I think it would be lost if it was built in Northern Michigan, Hilton Head, Scottsdale, Palm Springs, Las Vegas or other areas with high concentrations of good public golf.  It simply has too many weak holes (Especially the two rebuilt ones that are really bad).  I would hope it makes the list for people looking to play good public golf in Orlando but I am not sure it makes a serious contribution to the overall quality of public golf in the US.  Just my opinion.

PS - When you play there again, say hello to Eric Tate.  He runs the bag room and used to be the Ast. Pro at one of my clubs.  He is a great guy.

[johnk]

John,

I did miss that - but those are my sentiments exactly. For some reason when I search for Mystic Dunes now it doesn't come up.  I used advanced search and put in the last 1000 days...

As I played it, I wondered why it hadn't gotten a lot more publicity on GCA...  Perhaps there really aren't that many people on GCA who play FL regularly, or perhaps, since it's not from one of the annointed archies, it just doesn't rank much attention...

In any case, in my mind, it's as good as a modern course gets, and the fact that it came from Gary Koch et al is promising...

Now what I want to know is who is the real architect behind Koch?

[johnk]

David,

I agree that it may have weak holes, but as a whole, it's way better and more innovative than courses that regularly make the "Best 100 modern" type lists.

I've played Southern Hills, and it has some nice greens, but I think it's containment city, and it has all the character of any number of Las Vegas or Desert courses.  Which is too say (IMHO) very little.  In fact I think Mystic Dunes would be very appealing and different in Las Vegas.  Of course, the green fee would be $250.  I really do find Las Vegas to be desert for golf...

Actually, both So. Hills (i.e. #11) and Mystic Dunes had several greens that reminded me a lot of Kapalua Plantation.  So maybe guys like Smyers and whoever is Koch's designer are being influenced by C&C these days...  I find that interesting.

[Evan Fleisher]

Agree with the above assessments of the course...certainly Mystic Dunes falls in the upper echelon of public golf in the central Florida ransk, and I truly enjoyed my round there (with John C)...but it would probably not be that highly ranked had it been located in other areas of the country.

That being said, it is still worth a visit if you are in the area and want to play something other than the high-priced fare you find near Mickey Mouse's home.

[David Wigler]

David,

I agree that it may have weak holes, but as a whole, it's way better and more innovative than courses that regularly make the "Best 100 modern" type lists.

I've played Southern Hills, and it has some nice greens, but I think it's containment city, and it has all the character of any number of Las Vegas or Desert courses.  Which is too say (IMHO) very little.  In fact I think Mystic Dunes would be very appealing and different in Las Vegas.  Of course, the green fee would be $250.  I really do find Las Vegas to be desert for golf...

Actually, both So. Hills (i.e. #11) and Mystic Dunes had several greens that reminded me a lot of Kapalua Plantation.  So maybe guys like Smyers and whoever is Koch's designer are being influenced by C&C these days...  I find that interesting.

John,

I assume you mean Southern Dunes?  I doubt you are comparing MD to Southern Hills.  I do not mean this to be a criticism because I really like MD, but there is not a course on GW's top 100 that I would remove and replace with MD (Southern Dunes is not in the top 100).  Out of curiosity, which course that you have played would you remove for MD?

[johnk]

David,

Right, Southern Dunes.  I couldn't keep that one straight even when I was there.

Also a bit of confusion on the Top 100.  I was vaguely referring to the top 100 modern courses, which I believe is Golfweek's list.  I agree that MD would be a stretch to be in the Top 100 courses overall. (Of course, I do have other courses that I'd put in there that aren't - another topic of course

I'm really not a big ranking fan, but I do think courses on the top 100 modern list that I've played like WorldWoods Rolling Oaks, Barton Creek Fazio course, Princeville are not very special or different, and that Mystic Dunes stands out as a distinctive type of modern course - in that it integrates undulating greens with large chipping areas, includes some blindness and interior hazards, has a lot of driving options and is not all containment...  All stuff that is praised on GCA all of the time as making strategic golf possible.

[David Wigler]

John,

Fair enough.  I have played two of those three and like them more than Mystic but it is clearly personal preference and splitting hairs.  The one things we certainly agree upon is that MD is a worthy effort and worth to hour drive for those coming to Disney.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I played MD last winter, and I played it the day after a huge rainstorm, so the greens were in tough shape, and there were a couple of washout areas. No reflection on MD, just a big storm. I agree with much of what you say from a golf perspective, but on a number of holes, MD was feeling very pinched in by the condos that were being built. That RE community is obviously growing and there was lots of traffic around the course. Thus, I probably prefer Champions Gate - Int and Disney Osprey/Fazio for the serenity that they currently provide, but it looks as if Champions will soon be built up too. I will probably head over to Southern Dunes this Christmas for a look, as I like what I have seen from Smyers.

Top anything category is a big stretch for any of these, IMHO.

[David Wigler]

Mike,

The Condo holes are the ones I was referring to as the redesign holes.  Two of them are really pretty bad.  Obviously this is a personal preference thing.  Even with the three redesign holes, I still prefer it to Champions Gate and Disney.  Not a top 100 though IMO and yours.

[DTaylor18]

Southern Dunes has a lot of housing on it, and less than beautiful ones at that.  There was a lot of building at MD, but I only really remember it as bothersome on holes #8 and 9, and I tend to notice housing a lot. Definitely not a top 100 candidate IMHO but certainly one of the best that I've played in that area.  Ironically, one of the reasons I liked it was the lack of housing on most of the holes.  But I guess like a lot of the courses in that area, that will change soon too.

[John_Conley]

Wiggles:

The staffer working at Mystic must be new since we played there.  If he isn't, you never mentioned it!

JohnK:

What David is referring to is that the developer built three holes so he could sell timeshare.  Look!  There's golf if you live here!  When ready for the course, Koch had to work around three holes already in place.  They were #1, 2, and 18 - but are now #9, 10, 11 after the swapping of nines.  Dave's right; 9 is pretty bad.  (Too much wetlands)  11 is just so out of character with the rest of the course.

Mystic Dunes easily makes top decile for me.  (You may not have seen my Orlando decile rankings!)

[David Wigler]

John,

He moved down this year.  He is a great kid.

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