C'mon, don't be bashful!

JNC,

Nice patience!  You waited less than 9 minutes to post your "don't be bashful comment"!  This isn't a chat room...and it's not during the workday when the most people are online.
 

Not sure I've played any C&A designs.

Jeff,

How many are they credited for?  Ross did 430-some approx. and RTJ. Sr. may have been more.

I think Allison in particular was very prolific. An amazing number of designs in South America and Asia in particular (aren't bunkers in Japan called Allisons?). I'll bet there are a few hidden gems in both places.

You have to separate the two architects.  They rarely worked directly together.  Colt was more prolific than Alison, he got a large number of jobs and had a lengthy career in the UK, Ireland and Europe.

For Colt (ignoring PV) it's between:  Portrush, Muirfield, Swinley Forest and St George's Hill.  I pick Portrush.

For Alison it has to be:  Hirono, Kawana and Timber Point.  My guess is Hirono.

Timber Point? In LI? If so, it had to have been re-done. How much of the original course is left if so?

The best combined Colt/Alison design I know of--perhaps the only combined Colt/Alison design that ever existed (since I don't know that they ever really worked together) is the 9th hole at PVGC!  

Colt and Alison worked together at Stoke Poges. I suspect Crump visited SP and other Colt creations on his trip abroad. I'd say he made wise choice in hiring Colt to design his dream course.

There may be some other courses in England that the two architects collaborated on.  I just haven't worked it out yet.  I do know that Haagsche is Alison's and so is Rochester (since redesigned by Steel).  

Not sure how much time Alison spent in the UK, once his branch of the firm got up and running in the US; perhaps the occasional visit back, but did he work at all?

Reading the letters in Colt and Co, it's pretty clear that Colt was the boss and both Alison and Morrison looked up to him.

Park was designed by CH Alison for the firm of Colt & Alison. Alison did all the firms work in America in the 1920's.

Paul
I'm sure Colt and Alison collaborated on more than a few. I am convinced Alison traveled back to the UK periodically. If you look at the traveling habits of Park, Fowler and even Colt-- they would often be in N.America in the early spring through some point in the summer/fall (in the case of Park and Fowler) and then go back to the UK for the winter. Plus there would have been opportunites in the late 20's and through the 30's for Colt and Alison (and Morrison) to work together in Europe.

C.C. Detroit is not in the league of Plum Hollow.  I know I am biased but it is not even close IMO.  I have played none of their International work and will not comment on courses that stopped existing before I was born, but of the ones I have seen, Milwaukee C.C. is the best remaining example of Alison's US work and Plum Hollow is the best routing (With a careful restoration, it would become the best, as it was considered in the 40's and 50's when it hosted Ryder Cup's and Major Championships).

Tom Paul writes.

"Crump was known to have run into a dilemma beginning with how to finish (or route  and design) #12 and consequently #13, #14 and #15 to get back to #16 tee which had been built. That dilemma basically lasted for at least two years and apparently was designed by him but not constructed when he suddenly died in the early winter of 1918."

If you look at the photos I sent you from Colt's scrapbook you can see that the 14th green is being built (seen from 16th fairway).  We know that Crump was alive then, because he sent the book to Colt (plus, I'm pretty certain that the writing in the book is Crump's too).  Therefore, I'm almost certain that the course was complete (built), in terms of routing, before Crump died (obviously not in terms of detail... Alison's contribution).  I'm not sure where the info-claiming that holes 12-15 were constructed after Crump died-comes from.  It certainly doesn't make sense, given that Tillie reports on the new 13th as early as Dec 1915!  

Paul

As to the status of PVGC's holes #12-15 at the time of Crump's death in 1918 there isn't that much doubt. I've said before those holes were routed and likely designed to a large extent but they were not finished, they had not been completely constructed and definitely were not in play when Crump died in January of 1918. Crump never played those holes or saw them completed or as part of the opened 18 hole course.

You may be forgetting the consequences of the duration of WW1 and the USA's 19 months in that war. The construction of holes #12-15 was put on hold at that time and actually a "victory garden" was planted on what is now #12 during 1917. The armistice was in November of 1917. Again, Crump died in January of 1918.

After Crump died the construction of those holes was put on hold again so the club could figure out both how to finish off and complete those holes and bring them into play as well as how to pay for that construction. All this is just further evidence of how central George Crump was to Pine Valley and it's construction in both design and funding.

Those holes--#12-15 did not come into play and finalize the 18 hole course of PVGC until the summer of 1920--two and a half years after Crump died.

Alison did not construct those holes either. Pine Valley constructed them with the assistance of the Wilsons of Merion and William Flynn. When Wayne and I found that agronomy file containing approximately 2000 letters between Hugh and Alan Wilson and Piper & Oakley of the US Department of Agriculture we came across a letter from Hugh Wilson explaining that William Flynn was spending 3-4 days a week for an extended period of time at PVGC during this time after Crump's death and before the completion of those holes!

There's no doubt that Flynn was constructing and finishing those four holes and obviously to the design that Crump had left before he died. There seem to be only a few differerences about the way those holes were finished off compared to what Crump may have intended for them including a big carry bunker on the tee shot left on #13 and possibly a number of details on #15, particularly on the second half of the hole.

In March of 1921 Alison offered his hole by hole recommenations in his report to the 1921 Advisory Committee which is well known. Alison recommended that #15 be turned into a very long par 4 but the committee did not accept that recommendation. The recommendations of Alison's that were done are also on record in detail. There's no question at all that both Alison, who was actually a member of the 1921 Advisory Committee, and the other members of the Committee were working off those two independent hole by hole "remembrances" by Carr and Smith regarding what Crump intended to do with the course had he lived. There's no question that the committee's decisions to accept or reject recommendations were influenced by what they understood Crump would have wanted.