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mark chalfant

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Brook Hollow in Dallas
« on: September 20, 2003, 08:56:30 PM »
Anyone familiar  with this  Tillinghast  course ?

Is it a nice piece  of land with strategic interest.


I believe the greens  were rebuilt at some point.

How does this course compare  to other  
Tillinghast creations such as

Ridgewood or  Five Farms.

thanks.

Jim Franklin

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Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2003, 09:31:16 AM »
I am a member at Five Farms and recently played Brook Hollow. I thought the bunkering was very similar, but BH was much shorter. BCC has a great deal more elevation change which make it play longer than the actual yardage. BH's greens were also similar to BCC as you do not want to be above the hole. The same cross bunkering on one of the par 5s on the back. One big difference was the opening holes  which at BH was an easy par 5 and an easy par 4 while BCC you start with 2 monster 4s. All in all I thoroughly enjoyed Brook Hollow as I felt right at home.
Mr Hurricane

T_MacWood

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2003, 10:52:15 AM »
Brook Hollow was probably Tillinghast's wildest design. It was concieved as Texas's version of PVGC (one of the fellows who developed it was a PV regular...I believe he held the PV record...George Rutan?) and probably had around 200 or 300 bunkers. I'm not up on the club's history, but obviously at some point most of the bunkers were removed (and a lot of trees planted).

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2003, 10:55:16 AM »
Tom, Where does Brook Hollow fit in the Bell Curve of Tillinghasts designs???????????


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2003, 11:27:57 AM »
Tom MacWood,

If Brook Hollow was intended to be Pine Valley it would be an impossible task given the terrain, routing and hole designs.

The width of the fairways come nowhere near Pine Valleys, and that may be the critical starting point, after the lack of dramatic elevation changes.

Perhaps, that phrase might have been a selling point or marketing ploy.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2003, 12:32:58 PM »
Pat,

There is a picture in the clubhouse from the old days.  The fairways were originally separated by hundreds of bunkers, and virtually no trees.  So, its not unreasonable to assume it was trying to recreate the basic challenge - but not the exact holes of Pine Valley.  I don't know when the decision was made to go Parkland, but it is quite a change.

Coore and Crenshaw redid the greens and bunkers a dozen years ago, or so.  They did a great job.  However, no attempt to recreate the "original intent" of Tillie by reinserting hundreds of fairway bunkers.  Tree ordinances and member expectations probably stopped that idea, if it ever started....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2003, 06:16:19 PM »
Jeff,

I had played there a few times about 10 or so years ago and I was struck by the confining nature of the tree lined fairways.

It would seem that Brook Hollow befell the same alterations that took place at Hollywood, the eradication of bunkers and the planting of trees that lined the fairways, seperating the holes.

It's especially bothersome to me at Hollywood, since it's less then a mile from the Ocean, and enjoys good breezes, diminished by the impact of the trees.

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2003, 09:32:21 PM »
Cameron Buxton was a founding member and friend of George Crump.

Here is a 1926 aerial scanned from Gleanings from the Wayside.



There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2003, 09:36:49 PM »
Eric & Jeff,

The golf course I played bore absolutely no resemblance to the one pictured in the aerial..... unfortunately.

T_MacWood

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2003, 06:07:30 AM »
Looking at the picture the course appeared to be a cross between Oakmont and PV. The 15th hole looks to have Tillie's favorite -- Hells Half Acre.

Reic
Thanks for the picture.

ForkaB

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2003, 06:41:49 AM »
Played with a low HCP BH member last month who said that, while a Tillie, the course wasn't in any way great today.  Think he plays most of his golf at Dallas AC, where the competition is more echallenging.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2003, 05:33:46 PM »
Technology has changed Brook Hollow more than many old courses,I'm not quite sure why.I think the 10th is as good a par 3 as there is.Removing trees here would mean instant death in the summer.Oddly,the trees and terrain remind me of the lower holes at the Broadmore.I love this old course.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2003, 06:47:46 PM »
Brook Hollow was the site of a USGA first.

Does anybody know what it was ?

Eric_Dorsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2003, 08:36:28 PM »
Played with a low HCP BH member last month who said that, while a Tillie, the course wasn't in any way great today.  Think he plays most of his golf at Dallas AC, where the competition is more echallenging.


I've got news for you Mr. Goodale, Brook Hollow blows away Dallas AC.  While DAC is a great course, there's a reason they've never even considered returning there fora  major - it's just not that interesting of a course.  

I've played BH probably 10 times and is an awesome course IMO.  BH's green complexes are wonderful - great bunkering!  While I know Crenshaw supposedly restored BH, I'm not sure if he got it quite back to Tillie's approval.

While BH does lack some serious elevation changes, it does have a nice rolling feel to it.  #3, #4, #5, #6, & #7 are a great stretch of holes.  #10, #13, #14 I remember as being strong as well.  I especially liked #14, a great short hole with typical Tillinghast crossing hazards, that tempted you to drive over them every time you stepped on the tee.  And when you put your ball in the deep trap, or behind the grove of trees encroaching into the fairway, you always remembered why you keep telling yourself to lay-up on this hole damn it!

I could play BH every day.  For a Texas course with bent-grass greens, it is in remarkable shape.  You can play BH & Colonial side-by-side, and not be sure which course is better.

The rankings finally got it right by moving BH up to it's well deserved #2 ranking in the state this year.



« Last Edit: September 22, 2003, 08:38:19 PM by dorse72 »

ForkaB

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2003, 02:11:59 AM »
Thanks Mr. dorse72

I was just passing on an anecdote, which said nothing about the quality of the two courses, just the quality of the competition (players) at each.  Glad to hear that BH is so good.  I'll be in Dallas in January and maybe try to get a game there.  Is it good enough to warrant that sort of effort?

Eric_Dorsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2003, 09:41:38 AM »
I would have to say yes.  Although from what I remember, they're very private and I don't think they allow reciprocity of any kind.  Though I know the Dallas Stars have no problem getting on there.  :-X

I think's it's a subtle course that hits you the more you play it.

I played there in the winter months and the greens were perfect.  You have to deal with the dormant bermuda, but they make great fairways, as they're not so tight.


If there are 2 courses to get on in Dallas, it's Brook Hollow and Preston Trail, farther north about 20-30 min.

good luck
dorse

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2003, 06:43:24 PM »
Unfortunately the best Brook Hollow hockey playing golfer is now a Red Wing. >:(

SteveC

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2003, 07:24:40 PM »
Rich Goodale,

Might that BHGC/DAC member have been one Bryan Collins?

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2003, 09:06:29 PM »
Mr  Hurricane, Tom M , Patrick,

Dorse , et al thanks  for your help on this .


Eric,thanks for posting the  remarkable aerial,

I had no idea  Brook Hollow had  such a dramatic/memorable

original  layout.    Did you  get to play this  course during your

Texas years ?      If so  ,how was it...




Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2003, 10:09:33 PM »
Mark,

The aerial really is remarkable.  Thanks to Trebus, Wolffe, and Wolffe for digging it up and publishing.

Look at the number of squared-off greens and really angular features.  I wonder how it compared at the time to other courses of quality in Texas.  There just weren't too many around, but it would be interesting to see it beside say, a River Oaks of that circa.

I've never seen the place in person.   I grew up on the coast and played most of my golf around Galveston/Houston.  Totally different country from up there! ;)  
« Last Edit: September 23, 2003, 10:10:21 PM by Eric Pevoto »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

SteveC

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2003, 12:11:19 AM »
Unfortunately, the great majority of those bunkers in the ancient aerial are now gone. There are many, many trees now lining the fairways. IMHO, too many. Unfortunately, I think an earlier poster was correct in surmising that, without the trees, the course might burn up in the summer. The course is firm & fast in winter, for sure, and loads of fun always - it just requires a zillion gallons of water during the hot months, so the approaches tend to be soft and prevent run-up shots. No more squared off greens, either. But Brook Hollow has fabulous greens - generally quite fast, beautifully conditioned, and sure to confound even the experienced player on a regular basis.

A quick trivia note - check out the bunker on the right side of #1 fairway - I believe the name of the club's biennial member-guest is derived from that unusually-shaped bunker - "The Peppermint Stick."

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2003, 07:29:59 AM »
Since noone knew the answer:

The USGA first at Brook Hollow is that the same golfer had two (2) holes in one in the same round.

It occured during the mid-amateur and I believe the fellow's name was Don Bliss from Arkansas or Missouri.


SteveC

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2003, 08:30:09 AM »
Patrick,

I'll research the double ace trivia. Do you know who won that Mid-Am? He was for many years one of the top players in amateur golf.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2003, 08:46:33 AM »
The course had some work done to it in 1940 by Perry Maxwell.  He was working up in Fort Worth at Colonial at the same time.  I don't have any details of what he did at Brook Hollow though.  My guess is that the bunkering was altered for maintenance cost purposes, but don't know if Maxwell did any of it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Brook Hollow in Dallas
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2003, 08:49:21 AM »
Steve C,

Jay Sigel.

P.S.  I didn't need the clue, I was there.