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Patrick_Mucci

Should bunkers be black holes ?
« on: July 17, 2003, 09:38:55 AM »
Should bunkers and their surrounding terrain be designed to feed the ball into the bunker, making the surrounding area as much of a hazard as the bunker, expanding the penal nature of the bunkers, and causing the golfer to expand his strategic thinking ?

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2003, 09:52:45 AM »
Patrick,
I'm a big fan of bunkers as hazards and as the surrounds being used to usher the ball towards them.  Not necessarily all of them, but definately the ones in front of par 5's and short par 4's.

This has been used as a strategic design feature for may years with the greatest IMHO being the TOC 17 Road hole.
@EDI__ADI

ForkaB

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2003, 09:56:55 AM »
Yes. Patrick, although in some moderation, as JJSE suggests.  My question for you (and others)--why are such interesting hazard complexes so scarce in the good ole' US of A?

Ken_Cotner

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2003, 10:03:18 AM »
Rich,

Because they're all inside the rough.   ;)

K

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2003, 10:12:04 AM »
If one wants to find black holes, see the Rees Jones bunkering on the Dunes at MPCC. Sometimes we feel it diabolical.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2003, 10:17:12 AM »
KC, good to see your still kickin... ;D

I agree that bunkers shouldn't just be placed outward and wayward in the rough.  I think that it is a matter of design style and intent of the particular architect, and he should specify during design-construction where he envisions the mowing lines.  Arcadia Bluffs is a great example, I think.  There, scab like free form bunkers are found in the wayward-rough areas, and stacked sod walled bunkers with fairway mowing heights right up to lips are found within the fairways.  At the Sand Hill courses, there are mid-fairway bunkers, but depending on seasonal growth, rough lips are found surrounding the bunker edges.  Mostly the native grasses are found on the top and outbound edges, and mowing at fairway height leading into those bunkers is random, with some mowed and some not.  The mid-fairway bunker at 13 Rustic is another good point to consider in Pat's intro to this thread.  There, the sand basin is very small, but a significant area of fescue is kept high surrounding the small pot of sand.  Therefore the hazard area is expanded by probably a tougher extracation and shot from the deep grass than the sand itself.  I like them random for my own taste.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2003, 10:25:13 AM »
Yes.

Drainage is one reason you don't see them in the SE. Clay soils will shunt too much water into the bunker. They become a maintenance nightmare. At least that is what I'm told by the locals.

I don't know what the excuse is for US courses built on sandy soil. I would think Black Hole Bunkers [ed. - I like the way that sounds.] could be built and maintained quite easily on LI or in NJ or Cal.

Bob
« Last Edit: July 17, 2003, 10:28:18 AM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2003, 10:55:52 AM »
Pat:

Great question--and my response to you would be about the same as many of the other questions you've asked on here about architecture. That would be--nothing formulaic, nothing standardized into some sort of value system!

Why? Because that isn't the way of nature. And golf architecture at it's best should do its best to emulate nature. Nature, it's lines, it's formations, its shapes are so incredibly random--that's part of the inherent beauty of it. That's part of the reason Behr lobbied so hard for golf and it's architecture to be looked at more as a "sport" instead of a "game".

The distinction he made there was a "sport" is something man plays both in, with and across Nature--in a real way Nature is the sport of golf's medium--like hunting, fishing etc. A "game", on the other hand, is something largely, if not completely, designed and defined and manufactured by man, complete with standardized boundaries and value systems.

In golf architecture Behr felt the features of design (man made) would be best if they largely emulated the look and randomness of Nature. He believed this so Nature would not completely lose its part in the equation of playing the "sport" across Nature unadorned (or appearing so). He believed it so Nature would not lose its part in the balance of Nature as golf's medium. Golf's architecture was never supposed to be some completely defined and precise chessboard with its precise boundaries and values. That, to Behr was the "game playing mind" of the organizational Man!

Behr, however, did except, but only to a degree, what he called a few of golf's (and architecture's) necessary requirements. There were only four---tees, greens, fairways and bunkers! Bunkers, however, Behr said were the "odd vestige" of the game and it's architecture, that wasn't exactly necessary but had hung on in design from its natural beginnings in the linkslands (the original natural sand dune bunkers of the linksland). But as something that had apparently become necessary to architecture over time as golf migrated out of the original natural linkslands bunkers (sand) could be anything but natural to certain sites in this world.

But even with those four exceptions he said make them, or at least the shapes and lines and look of them, as random as possible to preserve that random aspect of Nature itself in golf.

So, that's why I keep saying do nothing formulaic or standardized in architecture. That only conforms to Man's "game playing mind" and not to the randomness of Nature as golf should never loose that as its medium to play on. That's most of what makes courses different and varied from one another and adds to the fascination of golf. The other direction just gets closer to the tennis court mentality.

So nothing should be standardized and formulized, including how bunkers function. I'd recommend the borders and surrounds of some bunkers should cast the ball away from them if a golfer skirts extremely close to them while others should use surrounding topography to collect the ball into them from afar.

What any golfer needs to do then and to be aware of is the random factors of the features of the course he's playing and how they function uniquely. The experience factor then kicks in here and the sport becomes better and more interesting. Unpredictability rises and Man's game playing perception of the necessity of fairness declines and minimizes.

By the way, one of the best examples of bunkering (primarily fairway bunkering) that collects the ball from really afar into bunkers on some holes is Oakmont. The fairway bunkering of Oakmont are a large, large part of the primary tee to green strategies of that golf course.

I fully expect you to come back and disagree with much of what I've said here, Pat, because I believe you possess a truly "game playing" mentality, or at least you appear to argue for it an awful lot when it comes to golf and it's architecture.

That's OK, I suppose--lots of people do possess the "game playing" mentality when it comes to golf and things like the necessity of fairness that needs such things as "formulaics", "standardization" and completely defined values--all practically the opposite of randomness and the way of Nature!

But thankfully a lot of others don't seem to support that "game playing" mentality and are supporting more of a return to randomness and the way of Nature--and their numbers seem to be growing everyday. Many of the great old architects of the "Golden Age" seemed to support that Natural random philosophy and principle in architecture, but certainly not all of them did or at least not to the same degree. The same with today's architects.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2003, 10:59:25 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2003, 10:56:32 AM »
My question for you (and others)--why are such interesting hazard complexes so scarce in the good ole' US of A?

My unscientific guess:

Because in America, we worship success.

No one worships success more than the successful -- the type who sit on the committees who run the clubs that set the standards.

Rare are the successful sort who will endorse the creation of circumstances (on the golf course, or anywhere) designed to increase the chances of their own failure.

One other reason: We Americans (even those successful sorts who have, by any reasonable estimate, far more than their "fair share" of everything) believe in fairness and justice. We despise bad bounces and bad breaks. We're a sunny people who believe that we left all of the bad bounces behind, in those dark countries of Europe ... where history is a nightmare from which Europeans are trying to awake.

The hazards you speak of are so ... so ... so unfair!

I know that this is a terribly inadequate analysis -- but I'd be surprised if I'm not at least on the verge of being on to SOMETHING!  

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2003, 11:08:38 AM »
Rich:

Regarding your post #2; apparently you've never played Oakmont.

ForkaB

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2003, 12:48:17 PM »
Tom

I said "scarce" not non-existant......

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2003, 12:48:58 PM »
Rich:

Regarding your post #2; apparently you've never played Oakmont.

Prof. Paul --

I believe that Prof. Goodale said "scarce," not "non-existent."
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2003, 12:56:50 PM »
Wow. That was weird.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

ForkaB

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2003, 02:19:17 PM »
You were 41 seconds late, Kelly.  Shape up or ship out!

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2003, 02:27:26 PM »
TomP:

I believe Rich said "scarce" not "non-existent".

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2003, 02:27:43 PM »
Rihc --

I wouldn't have been 41 seconds late, except that I stopped to check the spelling of "non-existent"!  ;D

You have to admit that was strange: An hour and 40 minutes later, we answer Prof. Paul with the identical words, within the same minute!

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2003, 02:28:21 PM »
Wow, that really is weird. How did that happen?

ForkaB

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2003, 02:31:24 PM »
Great minds think alike....

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2003, 02:35:03 PM »
Rich:

What was the question again? What's scarce not non-existent? I have no idea why I asked you if you've played Oakmont. Maybe it had something to do with the GHIN system VS CONGU. In any case I should reiterate that the GHIN system works better in America than CONGU would. It also works better at Oakmont than CONGU would.

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2003, 02:37:34 PM »
Could you please tell me what we're thinking alike about? The very thought of that is vaguely horrifying! Did I somehow imply somewhere that in architecture a hole is a hole is a hole?

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2003, 02:56:02 PM »
Could you please tell me what we're thinking alike about.

Tom --

I don't think yours was one of the great minds to which Rich was alluding.

But I could be wrong about that! This has become a very confusing thread!

Meanwhile: Does anyone (great mind, or otherwise) have any thoughts on my hypothesis posted at 9:56:32?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

ForkaB

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2003, 04:28:55 PM »
I generally agree with your hyopthesis, Dan.  Golf is hard enough for most players (particularly the used-to-be's that populate the committees on clubs).  Bunkers as eye-candy vs. bunkers that are really hazards are among the unfortunate consequences of this fact and the attitudes which follow from it.

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2003, 04:48:42 PM »
Dan:

I'd bet almost anything that you're right about Rich meaning someone other than me when he mentioned great minds think alike.  ;)

As to your hypothesis of 9:56:32, I'd say of course you're onto something. Americans are always interested in the idea of "fairness" particularly when it comes to themselves.

Not to mention my idea about the strong currents of "Manifest Destiny" within most Americans meaning they tend to want to control everything even if that means destroying things in the process.

But the ideas of "fairness" or "equity" in architecture had a very interesting debate (written) in the early years (pre-teens and teens) that you should refer to about this kind of thing. You should also refer to Tommy Nacarrato's "In My Opinion" article on here to see what JH Taylor said about this subject--specifically about bunkering and fairness and his alternative--mounding.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2003, 11:19:10 PM »
TEPaul,

NGLA bunkers are fed by their surroundings, on the greenside bunkers and fairway bunkers.

Many of the bunkers at TOC do the same thing as do many, many bunkers at many of the Open rota courses.

You're too hung up on the self induced fear of "formulaic"

Is common sense in golf course architecture formulaic or chaotic ?

TEPaul

Re:Should bunkers be black holes ?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2003, 12:00:56 AM »
"You're too hung up on the self induced fear of "formulaic"."

Pat:

I don't think so. The only reason it may appear so recently is because I've been responding to so many of your questions lately that appear to recommend and defend the "formulaic" in architecture.

"Is common sense in golf course architecture formulaic or chaotic?"

Oh, I don't know, probably neither. How about naturalism in golf architecture--is that formulaic or random?