[Dean Stokes]

I am throwing this question out there because I want to find out about better, tougher courses in Florida that we all don't know about - that I would like to play.
I understand we have the TPC Stadium in Jax. Copperhead in Tampa. Maybe the Blue Monster in Miami (although I've heard it's not so good). The original Sawgrass East/West is awesome.
 I've recently played Jupiter Hills in Tequesta and it is a great test of golf.
It is a little long at 7400, but for a Florida golf course it is a wonderful test of golf. Holes that dogleg both ways. Long, straight holes that are always a test, good bunkering and greens that are not too undulating that they cannot accommodate the stimp that the superintendant gets them to. A good selection of par 3's and not too many water hazards in play! This course held final qualifying for the US Open last year and I believe +4 got in. Has anyone else got any remarks on this course or any other great tests of golf in Florida?

[Andy Troeger]

Dean,
If you're look at tests of golf then both the Ocean and Conservatory courses at Hammock Beach fit that bill very well. The Ocean Course (more simply aka Ocean Hammock) has a couple holes on the ocean and is a strong test and a darn good golf course in its own right. Its no TPC Sawgrass, but good in its own right.

The Conservatory is a heck of a test at 7800 yards/155 slope. Its hard from 6700 yards where we played, and there is a 7200 yard set too. I'm not a huge fan of "tests of golf" unless there's something unique/creative about them and this one didn't wow me, but its hard and will challenge your game.

[jeffwarne]

Why is it whenever the phrase "test of golf" is used,
long, typically hazard fraught, architecturally deprived ,and usually boring golf courses/setups are mentioned.
(although Andy and Dean mention some pretty good courses)

Wouldn't Seminole be a "test of golf"?
or TOC, North Berwick, and many of the typically older charming layouts often mentioned here (or even new ones such as Pacific Dunes or Friar's Head) that may be shorter and/or easier to score on in benign conditions.

I don't see Carnoustie or a long 7400+  yard course as a better "test of golf", but rather as simply more difficult to shoot a low number.
Augusta (preredesign) was the lowest scoring major, but I always felt it was a "better test of golf" than those rough surrounded greens of the 70' and 80's in the US Opens producing such noteable winners as Lou Graham and Andy North.

I.E. don't we shoot ourselves in the foot when we refer to a long and or penal setup or course as a better "test of golf", when what we really mean is it's simply a harder course/setup.
I'd like to think some of the classic courses from both Golden ages of architecture and a few others are what we define as "tests of golf", and those others are " tests of something else" (patience or tolerance comes to mind.)

I guess I always had an aversion to tests in anything

[wsmorrison]

At one time I believe it was considered by many to be Boca Raton South (NLE).  Like many links courses, although it was not on links land, it had very little elevation change (10').  It was a great tournament course because it used wind and angles so well on holes of varying length and direction.  Yet it was wide and strategic; a course enjoyable for all classes of golfers.

Dan Wexler wrote an excellent piece on this course (and Boca Raton North) in Missing Links.

[Andy Troeger]

Jeff,
I guess when I think of a "test of golf" I do think of it as somewhat of an examination. Its a course that encourages you to hit fairways and greens with strong punishment for not doing so and also challenges you once on the putting surfaces. It requires execution above all else, and includes length, accuracy, and short game requirements. Quirk is kept to a minimum to avoid swaying the results with too much luck or chance.

Personally I don't really enjoy playing most courses of that style, at least not regularly. There are exceptions where courses are both thought provoking and good tests of golf, or are just plain fun in any case. Spyglass is a good example of a course that's a good test of golf while also being fun IMO. Colorado Golf Club might be another good one. More often give me the Seminoles, or of courses I've played, Kingsley Clubs etc of the world.

[Joe Bausch]

Mickelson and Toms put on a fun display at World Woods Pine Barrens in a 2002 episode of Shell's Wonderful World of Golf.  I think PM shot 68 and Toms a 69.  I'd love to see how a full field would do there.  

[TEPaul]

To me the best test of golf particularly at the elite golfer level in Florida or anywhere else is the course that will create the greatest scoring differential through the field. The good news is this is also an inevitable occurrence on a great course and great architecture particularly if the tournament conditions are ideal due to weather cooperation.

An example: If Merion gets the weather's cooperation I think a pretty large scoring differential through the field will be the result in the 2013 US Open.

[tlavin]

Hard to argue against TPC Sawgrass; it's one of the best tournament courses in the world.

[Dean Stokes]

I did play Ocean Hammock years ago and remember it being a heck of a course. I also forgot to mention the Champ course at PGA National. Really stood up as a test at the Honda last year.
Joe I've never played Pine Barrens but always had it on my list of places to play.
Jeff - did you miss the word Florida when you read the title of my thread!!! You mentioned a bunch of courses not near Florida!!!
Seminole would certainly be a test of golf for most, but not really for the Tour players who would hit SW all day into the greens and have the best short games in the world.
I guess when i say 'test of golf' I go back to my days of playing more serious golf where we'd talk about the course after the event and if it was a hard demanding track where you had to drive it long and straight, shape shots left and right,chip and putt many times - we would call it a 'test of golf".
In this unfortunate era of golf where the golf equipment has changed the way we play the great golf courses, IMHO, I merely wished to find other courses in Florida that were still a great test of tournament golf. If that means they have to be long then that's the way it has to be. Jupiter Hills is long these days but with very few hazards. Just well routed with good elevation change for Florida. I was hoping to get some other thoughts on that course but maybe it hasn't been played by so many.
Wayne - you say Boca used to be considered a good test of golf. Why 'used to'?

[TEPaul]

"you say Boca used to be considered a good test of golf. Why 'used to'?"

Dean:

Because Boca South is an NLE.

[Dean Stokes]

TE,
Thankyou for the insight. Merion I don't think is in Florida though. My question was about Florida courses. Can you put your scoring differential theory to the test in Florida? NLE? I'm still a newbie!!

[Phil Benedict]

Hard to argue against TPC Sawgrass; it's one of the best tournament courses in the world.

Gimmicky but a great venue for Tour golf.

[Mark Smolens]

Why does TPC always get described as "gimmicky?"  Some of the most enjoyable days I've ever had on a golf course took place there.  Dogleg right, dogleg left, alternate approaches creating differing options, bizarre (read that as fabulous) green complexes, and forward tee options for higher handicap friends who can't carry hazards. . . plus 17.  And now I've read that you can even get a guy to carry your bag?  That's the kind of gimmickry I'd like to play a lot.

[Dean Stokes]

Mark I agree. I think it gets that label due to the spectator mounds and many water hazards.
I think it's a great test of golf. Not too long, Fred Funk won there!, but every club in your bag is used and you need all the shots.
If you can play to your handicap there you can carry it anywhere.

[Mark Smolens]

Unfortunately, I can't seem to play to my handicap anywhere
, but alas it's in the struggle isn't it?

[tlavin]

Hard to argue against TPC Sawgrass; it's one of the best tournament courses in the world.

Gimmicky but a great venue for Tour golf.

I agree with Phil's description and don't think it's pejorative.  Dye clearly used gimmicks, chief among them the 17th green, the abundance of cape holes and a bunch of eye-candy bunkers (not to mention the out-of-play mounding and other spectator features) to bedevil the average and the expert player.  I just happen to enjoy his exercise in punishment, pleasure and gimmickry a great deal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean,

If you're speaking strictly in the context of the golf course and not the infrastructure and logistics, there are probably a number of potential sites that would make a good tournament course, but, they'd have to be altered a good bit, with added length the primary culprit.

Those guys are really, really, really good.

You may recall that Mirasol got some good reviews a few years ago.

Doral has been tweaked.

TPC seems to have withstood the test of time.

[Dean Stokes]

I agree Patrick. All I really wish to achieve from this thread is to find out about good, perhaps tough, perhaps long, perhaps gimmicky, tests of golf in Florida so I can put them on my list of places to play. There is a course near Orlando that we played a few years ago - Victoria Hills - fairly new course but a fine test.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

TPC Sawgrass is going to really interest me in the Player's Championship in the future.

I mean there you have one of golf's ultimate aerial target courses and they've just completely reworked the course to promote some real firm and fast throughout.

That will definitely be an interesting combo, to say the least. If they get it as firm and fast throughout as they say they'd like to have it, I think I can already hear some tour pros screaming!  

I have my "Ideal Maintenance Meld" prescription that primarily hinges on various aspects and areas of firm and fast but I sure wouldn't put the same degree of it on a course like TPC Sawgrass as I would on Shinnecock, for instance.

[jeffwarne]

Dean,
I was more referring to other threads where "tests of golf" always meant difficult. I knew you were referring to Florida and agree that Seminole might be a bit short for a tour event.
But I'd sure like to find out.
It was more a rant on the phrase "Test".



Andy,
I guess it all depens on ones definition of golf.
Analyzing and dealing with quirk and blind shots is a skill, no?

[mark chalfant]

Dean:

I have not been to Dick Wilson's opus at Pine Tree, but a few very good players who I know, including one course architect, speak highly of this heavily bunkered course. One friend marvelled at the challenging tee shots. He also mentioned restrained use of water as a strategic hazard.

[tlavin]

Dean:

I have not been to Dick Wilson's opus at  Pine Tree, but a few very good players who I know, including  one course architect, speak highly of this heavily bunkererd course. One friend marvelled at  the challenging tee shots. He also mentioned restrained use of water as a srategic  hazard

Pine Tree is a treat, indeed.  I'm sure it's very difficult from the back tees, but very difficult for a tour pro?  Probably not so.  Mr. Mucci could speculate better than I, but I would think that the tour would go very deep at Pine Tree with a tour stop set-up.

[Dean Stokes]

I understand Jeff. Good test can mean a lot of different things.
Test for me means hitting every type of shot, having to use most of my clubs,good challenging par 4's and an array of different par 3's. Playing Jupiter Hills a few weeks ago was a 'test'. Long irons and even woods into par 4's. Differing lengths par 3's in various directions, holes that if you missed the fairway you were not getting on the green and good greens that were hard, fast and not too undulating that they were unputtable. Is that a word?

[Dean Stokes]

I have heard only good things about Pine Tree.

[Dean Stokes]

If any of you get to Jacksonville, Timuquana Golf Club on the West side of town is a treat (sorry test). Donald Ross classic.

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