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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Amazing Greens
« on: January 25, 2008, 06:24:51 PM »
It's Friday night.  Give us a list of your favorite greens.

*Personal favorite.  Whatever the reason: quirk, shape, entry, defense of hole -- you decide.  But you must tell us why.
*Most available pin positions
*Best pin position for the money
*Best Stimp-independent surface
*Just plain sitting pretty

And tell us why the green(s) in each category grabs your fancy.

As a bonus, tell us who in your opinion builds/built the best greens?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2008, 06:44:09 PM »
Dr. J:

I must have the contours of 1000 different greens in my head.  Actually, more than that, since I've built about 500 in my own work now.  One personal favorite?  You've got to be kidding.  

I think the most original I've ever seen is the 12th at White Bear Yacht Club in Minnesota.  The green falls away sharply to the back, with a pronounced shoulder at either side in the front.  To take the steam out of the approach, you play to either edge of the fairway, then bank your approach off the shoulder on the opposite side.  If you drive it straight down the middle of the fairway, there's no help, just a green falling away at four percent.

Most available pin positions:  the 13th at The Kingsley Club.  But I think that one is over the top.  I much prefer the 13th at Barnbougle.

Best pin position for the money:  back left on the 13th at High Pointe.  If you go straight at it from the fairway you'll probably go in the rear bunker ... the clever approach is to play up to the back middle of the green, and the ball will make a U-turn from there and come back to the hole.

Best Stimp-independent surface:  the 15th at Stonewall (North).

Just plain sitting pretty:  the 15th at Cypress Point.  Also love the 15th at Bandon Trails for its end-of-the-little-valley setting.

Who builds the best greens?:  Four of the best greens-builders in the world today are on my payroll -- Eric Iverson, Brian Schneider, Brian Slawnik, and Jim Urbina.  Which of them is best depends on what style you prefer.  (At different times, I've also had Jerame Miller, Tom Mead, Gil Hanse, Mike DeVries and myself as greens shapers, none of whom would take a back seat in that area of design.)  
          Historically, I guess it would be the Wood brothers, who worked for Perry Maxwell.  Or maybe Old Tom Morris himself.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 06:50:18 PM by Tom_Doak »
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michael_j_fay

Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2008, 07:15:39 PM »
My favorite sets of greens can be found at:

Crystal Downs (#7 green leads the list)
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Shinnecock Hills
National
Brae Burn in Boston
Salem
Oyster Harbors
Augusta National
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J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2008, 07:32:36 PM »
These greens are interesting:

http://www.zilziebay.com.au/reef-palms/

What do you guys think?  Particularly the superintendents and designers :)
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2008, 07:41:53 PM »
#3 at West Bend CC left a lasting impression on me.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2008, 07:52:19 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 25, 2008, 07:41:53 PM
#3 at West Bend CC left a lasting impression on me.

Joe

Ok Joe, I'll take the bait:  Why is that?
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2008, 07:56:09 PM »
Tom you guys build some great greens starting with the subtle greens at Stonewall, especially the 15th (I believe), the green that is a continuation of the downslope of the fairway that falls away.  There is something about that green that I love.  Yet you go across the road and get something completly different.  The rugged gnarly greens at Pacific Dunes.  I am not sure anyone would call it the best green out there, but I loved the 10th at Pacific Dunes.  We were playing into a strong wind off the ocean and I had to play a knock down into the wind.  I pulled the ball slightly left and had to play over the knob to a back middle hole location.  That was one of the many memories from playing there, but I just thought that green (subtle for the most part) in concert with the surrounds (which I got to experience) and the wind is simply genius.

Dasterdly green -  The finishing hole at Lancaster Country Club.  A very long uphill par 4 with a severely sloped green.  Rebuilding that one would be a travesty.  Missing the green left with any hole location middle to front is very intimidating.

Underrated - The remaining Ross holes on the East Course at the Broadmoor, especially the par 3 4th.

Wildest green - #2 Pine Valley.

Green I could putt and chip to for hours - 8th Hidden Creek

Enjoyed the deception (from the tee) of the 5th at Bandon Trails.

Nastiest pin placement - front of the 14th at Bandon Trails.  A small appendage that extends towards the tee between a bunker (left) and fall off (right).  I think it is only 20' wide if that.

Unknown to most but worth the study - the 2nd, 6th,  8th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 17th and 18th at Tavistock.  I have mentioned these greens before.  The combination of internal rolls, swales, bumps, ridges and slopes are inspiring.  I can see why so many good players are at that club.
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2008, 07:58:51 PM »
Quote from: JMorgan on January 25, 2008, 07:52:19 PM
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 25, 2008, 07:41:53 PM
#3 at West Bend CC left a lasting impression on me.

Joe

Ok Joe, I'll take the bait:  Why is that?

The contour that separates the back (lower) from the front is one of the sharpest contours I've seen on a green. Another cool thing is the sharpest part of the contours are on the perimeters of the green, with a more subtle fall-off in the middle section of the green. You can see what I mean on Google Maps or Google Earth. West Bend, WI.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2008, 08:00:08 PM »
Tom, is the green at White Bear YC original to Ross or was it a redesign?  Great response to the question, thanks.  

Michael, speaking of Ross, what about the Oyster Harbors greens make them a nonpareil set of Ross greens?  On par with or better than Pinehurst?
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2008, 08:10:07 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 25, 2008, 07:58:51 PM
Quote from: JMorgan on January 25, 2008, 07:52:19 PM
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 25, 2008, 07:41:53 PM
#3 at West Bend CC left a lasting impression on me.

Joe

Ok Joe, I'll take the bait:  Why is that?

The contour that separates the back (lower) from the front is one of the sharpest contours I've seen on a green. Another cool thing is the sharpest part of the contours are on the perimeters of the green, with a more subtle fall-off in the middle section of the green. You can see what I mean on Google Maps or Google Earth. West Bend, WI.

Joe

Joe, is this it?


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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 08:13:23 PM »
JMorgan,

I am not 100% positive, but I'm quite sure that is it. I'm sorry that I don't have a picture.

In your picture, it's hard to tell because of being below the green, but the pin looks like it is on the lower back half of the green.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

michael_j_fay

Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 08:15:47 PM »
The Oyster Harbor greens fit the landscape and their respective holes perfectly. They are very much like the greens at Salem.

There are exceptional greens on both courses, two most notable are # 13 at Salem and #2 at Oyster Harbor. The beauty of both courses is that they both have eighteen greens that pose differing and challenging aspects to both the chipping and putting game. All the greens at both courses have rear pin positions that are draconian and the areas of safety do not offer easy two putts.

The second hole at Oyster Harbor is 467 yards long, no elevation change and I remarked to the member I last played with ther that I thought that the hole was too short. He replied that it fit perfectly; "on in two and three putts".

The greens at # 2 are impossible for the normal golfer. They defeat the best chippers and I have seen very good putters putt right off the greens there.

Brae Burn has a wild set of greens and I would put forth the green on the fourth hole as one of the most confounding in the annals of Ross.
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 08:24:22 PM »
JMorgan,

This gives some idea of how abrupt the 3rd green at WBCC is.






Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 08:25:35 PM »
Quote from: JNagle on January 25, 2008, 07:56:09 PM

Green I could putt and chip to for hours - 8th Hidden Creek


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Brock Peyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 08:38:06 PM »
I have said it before and will say it again that my favorite is #14 at ANGC.  I love it that there aren't any bunkers.  I find it to be very intriguing that when it is on the right side you really need to hit the ball on the left side of the green and I just love the contours of the thing.  It's a thing of beauty.
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Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2008, 08:39:31 PM »
18th Green at Lookout Point

It's build into the lower face of the Niagara Escarpment and it is very tricky to figure out until you've played there enough.
Visually from the fairway you can't see the putting surface and it seems like a very small target.  Once you're on the green for the first time you'd swear it runs away to the back but of course it matches the hillside it's built into and it runs back to front.  Exceedingly quick from the back but there is no way you're eyes can believe it.  

I love that green.
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2008, 08:47:31 PM »
#15 Tain:

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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2008, 08:50:25 PM »
Quote from: Jeremy Rivando on January 25, 2008, 08:39:31 PM
18th Green at Lookout Point

It's build into the lower face of the Niagara Escarpment and it is very tricky to figure out until you've played there enough.
Visually from the fairway you can't see the putting surface and it seems like a very small target.  Once you're on the green for the first time you'd swear it runs away to the back but of course it matches the hillside it's built into and it runs back to front.  Exceedingly quick from the back but there is no way you're eyes can believe it.  

I love that green.

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Greg Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2008, 10:05:29 PM »
Tom D,
What about the back of 16 at Pac Dunes? I hate that part of the green. Headed out in late March to try and conquer that again. Also enjoy #9 at Tanglewood in W-S, NC or # 11 at TOC.
Thanks,
Greg
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It's all about the fellowship.

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2008, 10:08:36 PM »
Hiwan Golf Club in Evergreen, Colorado... Press Maxwell, diabolical without local knowledge. The thing is, they don't look that hard, which adds to the frustration (the first time around) ;)
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Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Andy Troeger

Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2008, 10:17:24 PM »
Quote from: TonyP on January 25, 2008, 10:08:36 PM
Hiwan Golf Club in Evergreen, Colorado... Press Maxwell, diabolical without local knowledge. The thing is, they don't look that hard, which adds to the frustration (the first time around) ;)

Tony,
One of my former high school golfers played a tournament there last summer and said they were unbelievably difficult so I'll add that to back your comments  ;D
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Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2008, 02:58:16 AM »
#15 at TPC River Highlands.  Perfect green for a hole of its length.
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Mark_F

Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2008, 03:28:44 AM »
Quote from: JMorgan on January 25, 2008, 08:47:31 PM
#15 Tain:



Great pic of a fantastic green.  It's worth playing Tain just for that one hole.
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Dieter Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2008, 03:31:56 AM »
How do you add photo's (sorry too dumb to figure it out).
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Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Ray Richard

Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2008, 07:19:08 AM »
On the category sitting pretty, I like subtlety and #9 at Myopia Hunt Club is my favorite. Anybody can bury elephants in green complexes and call it character but it really doesn’t match up to a well-designed green with plenty of action that doesn’t look ostentatious.

 This green is a small to mid-size putting surface that is pitched slightly forward. Surrounded by a collection of deep and nasty bunkers, the beauty is in the soft contours. The architect incorporated a smooth inward slope on both sides of the green and collar, and any shot that lands on the outside edges will be kicked toward the center. Perhaps the architect thought that he had built enough bad stuff around the green site and he needed to reward a good but not great shot.
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