i swear John when I saw the title of your thread,  without reading you post, the first course that popped into my thick skull was Five Farms!

and the tough start there did nothing to subtract from my opinion of how good the course is

Tom P.,

The idea of designing a tough opening hole as a legitmate 19th, where a playoff could be decided, has always fascinated me. It's definitely an old-fashion idea, from an era when match-play was king.

Re tough openings. How about Crystal Downs? The first hole is really tough, principally because of the slope of the green. And, I don't recall the uphill, par-4 second being a slouch either.

A great course though... Crystal Downs.

How do you feel about a hole that is now completely different then intended by the architect?

In the case of Pasatiempo, a relatively treeless, downhill, into the wind par-5 with a small angular green designed for the short iron approach is now a 450 yard narrow treelined brute with the same small angular green.

How about Evanston GC for a tough start?  Tho I haven't been there since the course was redone, if I could get through the 1st three holes in one over, I always felt that I could have a decent scoring day. . .

Mike,
I thought 1 at Pasa was a great starting hole to ease you inot the round.  It would be interesting to see at the KP the stats of GIR and score  I am sure the scoring avg. will be much closer to 5 than 4.  And a 3 will win a skin.

Mike,
I thought 1 at Pasa was a great starting hole to ease you inot the round.  It would be interesting to see at the KP the stats of GIR and score  I am sure the scoring avg. will be much closer to 5 than 4.  And a 3 will win a skin.

Of course this begs us to ask the question that if the Pasatiempo Group is going to continue the renovation theme, will they convert #1 back to a par-5 with the tee box up on the hill?

While not a very talked about course, the hardest start I have ever played is Talamore in Pinehurst. It starts with a 625 Par 5, then a 215 Par 3 and a 420 Par 4. Not easy by any stretch. Wake Forest Golf Club used to be a kick in the face start as well with the 711 par 5.

Monarch Dunes definitely qualifies as a brutal starter. Most golfers who walk away with a bogie on the opening hole are thrilled. Those afraid of water on the left often leave themselves 190-210 yards out on this par 4 dogleg left, followed by an approach to a green that's challenging enough to hit from 150.  I enjoy that "Welcome to Monarch Dunes" initiation.

I think their even more difficult 9th would make a better finishing hole than 18, but the par 4 10th would prove to be an even more challenging opening hole than the 1st!

Pascuzzo doesn't ease you in to either nine!  Kind of wakes you up right off the bat.

Mike:

Same for me.  But if you're talking about making it the gentle par five that Mackenzie intended, that's where the tee was.  There were also basically no trees...

The tee up on top of the cart barn was relatively short-lived.  I can't see the worth of restoring that... best case-scenario you make the hole 510 or so... so yes you could call it a par five from there, but given the downhill it remains reachable, but too darn narrow to really make it worth trying.

If we're gonna have the range and the trees, I think the hole works better without the back tee, giving no one any easy excuse to think of it as a par five.  I like how mind-bending it is now, for those tied to the concept of par anyway.

I'll second Winged Foot West:

#1  450 dogleg left with a tough to hit fairway.  Then a longish second to one of the most severe greens I've ever seen.  Jack Nicklaus putted off this green in 1974--one of his four putts I think that day on that green (although the second putt from the fairway may not be an "official" putt )

#2  Lenghthened to 450 as well and the dogleg right with the trees down the right force most mortals to play left further lenghthening the hole.  Approach is to another ridiculously sloping back to front green with a tree growing out of the back of it.

#3  240 par 3 now!  The hole where Casper layed up in '59 instead of risking missing this green on either side of this tiny target.

#4  460 dogleg left, OB right and a tightly guarded green.

As hard as the first four holes are I think they are are excelent strategic holes and a perfect example of brutal but great.  Nothing tricked up at WF--just  be ready to play and hit some golf shots.

Oak Tree - 1st hole, Edmund, Okla. Brutal long par-4, dogleg right with overhanging trees, hanging lie to a green just beyond a pond and steeply bunkered left and long as I recall. It's the hardest opening hole I've ever seen.

While not a very talked about course, the hardest start I have ever played is Talamore in Pinehurst. It starts with a 625 Par 5, then a 215 Par 3 and a 420 Par 4. Not easy by any stretch. Wake Forest Golf Club used to be a kick in the face start as well with the 711 par 5.

I thought about Talamore too, that is quite an opener if you haven't hit practice balls at that nearby range.  

Plus you might get run over by a llama!