[George Pazin]

And Jack won 5?

I thought this might be a fun way of examining some of the chicken and egg ideas related to golf course architecture. (And I think we could use a little lightheartedness right now.)

What do you think? Please provide some reasons, not just a yes or no!

 

[Jon Wiggett]

How about car parks on the inside of dog legs , or not bothering to have fairways as Seve never hit all that many in his prime.

I think courses would generally be more quirky as the best thing about watching Seve was his unbelievable escapes. The more quirk the more unbelievable.

[TEPaul]

George:

What an unusual and interesting question. If Seve had won 20 majors many of the world's fairways would probably be standardized at about 7 1/2 yards by now.

Seve and his game is probably responsible for most of the bad things that've happened in architecture, and what he's not to blame for should be pinned on this President, George Bush, in my opinion!

[tlavin]

George:

What an unusual and interesting question. If Seve had won 20 majors many of the world's fairways would probably be standardized at about 7 1/2 yards by now.

Seve and his game is probably responsible for most of the bad things that've happened in architecture, and what he's not to blame for should be pinned on this President, George Bush, in my opinion!

Couldn't have said it any better myself!

[Jon Wiggett]

Seve and his game is probably responsible for most of the bad things that've happened in architecture, and what he's not to blame for should be pinned on this President, George Bush, in my opinion!

Bizarre comment Tom. Please explain futher how one player singlehandedly destroyed GCA. They didn't even fill in that pond on 15

[Phil Benedict]

Seve rarely contended in either the USGA or PGA, primarily due to narrow fairways and high rough.  It's hard to imagine him winning these events frequently with his game and their set up.  So he would have had to win lots more Masters and British Opens.  Had he not lost his game at a fairly early age, it's easy to see him winning 10 or more majors.

I don't think that would have affected architecture one way or the other.

[John Moore II]

I can't say that I think it would have affected architecture very much. Seve, from what I can recall, did not often see the parts of the golf course designed by the architects. Its hard to draw plans for parking lots, trees, gorse, and other extremities.

[Peter Pallotta]

George - neat.

I think one way to look at this is to wonder whether Jack's designing career would've happened at all if he'd won 'only' five majors.

If he'd won them spaced out by a few years, he'd be thought of historically more like Billy Casper; or if he'd won them all early in the 60s and then faded completely, he'd be thought of as some interesting failure.

Either way, I don't think he would've worked with Pete Dye, and I certainly don't think he would've been in a position to play such a big role in the 80s and 90s and beyond.

And, since the 80s and 90s were about big, green and gilded courses, I wonder if -- in the absence of one of that era's name brands -- something or someone else would've come along to fill the resulting void.

Of course, this presupposes that the mass of golfers (and developers) would've been open in the 80s and 90s to something less than big, bold and gilded.

Peter  

[John Moore II]

Peter-I didn't think of it that way. But you are correct, I do not think that Jack would have had the design business he has today and has had for the last while. And that by itself may have had major impacts on the golf course design business.

[Jeff Spittel]

Given my driver's affinity for parking lots, sewage treatment facilities, and backyard landscaping personnel, I really wish this would have come to pass.

[Jim Nugent]

Cool thread, George.  Related question:

If Jack had only won five, Arnie probably would have won 12 or 15.  Would that have changed architecture?

BTW, I think Seve believes he could have or should have won twenty.  He says he would have set the Masters record, except for that one shot on 15 in 1986.  And the reason he did not win the U.S. Open or PGA, according to him, is he did not spend enough time in the U.S.  

[George Pazin]

How about car parks on the inside of dog legs , or not bothering to have fairways as Seve never hit all that many in his prime.

I think courses would generally be more quirky as the best thing about watching Seve was his unbelievable escapes. The more quirk the more unbelievable.

George:

What an unusual and interesting question. If Seve had won 20 majors many of the world's fairways would probably be standardized at about 7 1/2 yards by now.

I have to admit, when I first thought this hypothetical up, I thought we'd have quirkier courses.

Then I remembered Tiger-proofing, and came to the same conclusion as Tom P: we'd have ultra narrow courses with even heavier rough than now.

It also made me think back to the Golden Age, and then the RTJ period that followed, and wonder if the RTJ period was a result of players like Hagen being able to win with scrambling styles.

I didn't think about Jack's design business or his impact through that at all, I will admit!

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
Let me understand this, Hogan won with radar like precision and fairways narrowed- Seve 'wins 20' by spraying it all over the place and fairways would also narrow? Something's wrong, unless you're in a parallel universe.  

I would think that, if anything, Seve winning 20 from everywhere wouldn't have rattled anyone's chains.

I say little effect.
 

[Jon Wiggett]

I think one of the differences is that with Hogan you could see where his strengths were although narrowing the course was only playing into his hands (like lengthening to Tiger proof) With Seve, it was his ability to do the incredible or even impossible that set him apart. There is no way to design against such and you shouldn't.

[Joe Hancock]

Has it been established that golf course design is what it is today because of Jack's accomplishments, apart from his own designs?

Joe

[Adrian_Stiff]

SURELY golf course architecture and winning majors are only loosely liked. Whilst the likes of Palmer, Nicklaus, Player may be the name on the design, I am not sure how much their real input is. Being a great golfer u cud be a shoot 80s architect and u cud be a shoot 80s golfer but a great architect. There is no need to be a great player, but you need to have the understanding of a great player.

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