Diva Architecture.

Tom D:

That's unfortunate -- but I have say that the RTJ branding campaign of the "7,000+ yard championship course" still lives on in the minds of so many. In true terms, the movement away from that misconception will indeed take time.

I guess the key question is whether or not you'll do the job with the stipulations noted?

You can eat crow, but you can't eat principles -- lean times ahead.

Kirk-as you must have discovered on here, the percentages do not matter. In todays point of view, there is no way to have an elite club and have it be less than 7000 yards. I think this is bogus, Doaks work at Pac Dunes proves it. But in order to be considered elite, you must be 7000 yards and gutbuster hard.

So what do you do if you take on such a project but you feel constrained by the 7000 yard mandate? Force a couple of 600+ yard par fives into the routing to gain more freedom on the other 16 holes? Dogleg the longer par fours to allow a shorter route to be taken? Any other tricks to "stuff" yardage into a course to meet the artifical 7000 yard requirement?

I like the dogleg idea to make the hole potenially shorter. Tobacco Road has a few holes like that, but its still 'short' That would be a great thing to do in order to cut down on real yardage. Creative Measurements, sharp doglegs, huge greens even.

Wayne-I would say the owners just wing it, I am sure very few of them do an in depth market analysis prior to building. If that was the case, I feel certain there are some clubs around Pinehurst where I live that would not have been built, and the current ones being build would have never started.

Please forgive this "newbie" question - but at a typical private club (as if there is such a thing, but bear with me) what percentage of golfers regularly play from the tips? Additionally, what percentage of those who regularly play from the tips don't necessarily have the game to do so?

I know those may be hard questions to accurately answer, but what I'm obviously getting at is what percentage of a club's membership really plays (or should be playing) a 7000 yard course?

At my two clubs, small and smaller.  In fact the more highly acclaimed club has very few plays from the tips...they don't even generally have a division in the tournaments for the tips except for the club championship.  I would say no more than 5-10% at the most (and both of my clubs are "golfers clubs").

BUT, both of my clubs have hosted significant state or national tournaments and without the tips this would be nearly impossible.  For example, we hosted a USGA championship, and although they didn't use the tips on every hole, every day, I think they required the flexibility that the back tees provide.  Hosting this sort of tournament certainly increases the likelihood that your course will be considered a "top private club".

I see both sides of this debate.  The course is mostly there for the members...but the person shelling out the money wants the most opportunities to promote the course as great.

Tom D.:  I am sure you consider these sorts of mandates on a case by case basis... some are probably easier to swallow than others.  I don't see how, after weighing all of the circumstances, deciding to proceed would be "eating your principles".  Likewise, I wouldn't condemn you for weighing all of the details and passing on a job.  Doesn't almost every job you take come with some compromises from what you would consider to be ideal?  Good luck....sounds like you might need it.

Bart

Kelly-I think the reaction is due to the fact that he is being forced to do a 7000 yd course, whether it fits the property or not. 7000 yards is fine, if its the best fit, but to say "I must have 7000 yards and I don't care if it fits" is wrong. Thats what people are up at arms about

Off Kelly's post, it does strike me that what RTJ meant by a "7,000 yard championship test" -- or what that came to mean, on the ground -- isn't much related to what Tom D (or any of the architects here) would do with a 7,000 yard mandate.  Is it an artificial limit? Probably. But what isn't?

Peter

Peter-what we are trying to say is that RTJ used advertising to make the 7000 yard course the only courses worthy of a championship. And this mindset still holds true today. If courses aren't 7000+ yards long, they are not seen as true championship courses. Is that wrong? Maybe, but its the facts. RTJ and the ads do not relate to architects today, but the idea that clubs have about what makes a club good is based on that old assessment.
-Chip-I believe those clubs were longer during that time because technology was improving, same as today. In order for holes to play the same today as they did 20 years ago, they have to be longer, no way around it.

Kelly-my point was that people do not seem to be outraged by the 7000 yards so much as it seems that he is being forced to do it. I do agree though, the owner may not win an arguement with Tom, but he may be set in what he wants as well.

I don't see what the problem is with an owner who wants something to a certain specification.  If Tom doesn't want to do the project he is certainly entitled to pass on it without is causing a major issue.  I'm sure this happens all the time with almost every commercial building project.