[Tom_Doak]

To follow up my post from a couple of weeks back, just to let you all know, I heard back from the "golf guy" hired by that client a couple of weeks back.  

They want a full design and shaping proposal from us to do the course, AS LONG AS we are amenable to making the golf course at least 7,000 yards.  I'm assured that it is imperative that their course be 7,000 yards long in order to achieve their goals of being considered a top private club in their market.  I guess my own past body of work can't be entered into evidence, because they know their market better than I do.

[John Kavanaugh]

Diva Architecture.

[Mike Benham]

 I guess my own past body of work can't be entered into evidence, because they know their market better than I do.

Then don't bid the project ...

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

That's unfortunate -- but I have say that the RTJ branding campaign of the "7,000+ yard championship course" still lives on in the minds of so many. In true terms, the movement away from that misconception will indeed take time.

I guess the key question is whether or not you'll do the job with the stipulations noted?

[John Moore II]

I think its a bad sign when people start requiring that a course be a certain length. at times, that length may not fit. I recently played Duke Golf Club, and while I thought it was a good course, challenging and such, I couldn't help but notice that on many tees I was forced to walk backwards from the green to get there. Just forcing yardage on a course like that is foolish in my mind. BTW-going with what Matt just said, Duke is a RTJ course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

You can eat crow, but you can't eat principles -- lean times ahead.

[Kirk Gill]

Please forgive this "newbie" question - but at a typical private club (as if there is such a thing, but bear with me) what percentage of golfers regularly play from the tips? Additionally, what percentage of those who regularly play from the tips don't necessarily have the game to do so?

I know those may be hard questions to accurately answer, but what I'm obviously getting at is what percentage of a club's membership really plays (or should be playing) a 7000 yard course?

[John Moore II]

Kirk-as you must have discovered on here, the percentages do not matter. In todays point of view, there is no way to have an elite club and have it be less than 7000 yards. I think this is bogus, Doaks work at Pac Dunes proves it. But in order to be considered elite, you must be 7000 yards and gutbuster hard.

[John Kavanaugh]

The only thing given about Doak's work is that..If he does not respect the owner, he produces a lesser course.  Of course, I do not know which typically comes first.

[CHrisB]

So what do you do if you take on such a project but you feel constrained by the 7000 yard mandate? Force a couple of 600+ yard par fives into the routing to gain more freedom on the other 16 holes? Dogleg the longer par fours to allow a shorter route to be taken? Any other tricks to "stuff" yardage into a course to meet the artifical 7000 yard requirement?

[wsmorrison]

Will you have to compromise your ideal routing and final product to create a 7000+ yard course?  If so, in what ways?

If a particular site is best suited to a longer course, for instance the ideal holes just seem to work out that way, would you rather create a shorter version on principle?  

I guess what I'm getting at is do you go in and try to find the best course possible and in the end see how it shakes out in terms of par/yardage or do you have in mind a range of overall yardage and try to see what fits that model?

Do owners know the market better than the architects?  Do they bother with an in depth due diligence to find out what kind of course might succeed best in a certain area or do they wing it?  

[John Moore II]

I like the dogleg idea to make the hole potenially shorter. Tobacco Road has a few holes like that, but its still 'short' That would be a great thing to do in order to cut down on real yardage. Creative Measurements, sharp doglegs, huge greens even.

Wayne-I would say the owners just wing it, I am sure very few of them do an in depth market analysis prior to building. If that was the case, I feel certain there are some clubs around Pinehurst where I live that would not have been built, and the current ones being build would have never started.

[Michael Dugger]

So what do you do if you take on such a project? Force a couple of 600+ yard par fives into the routing to gain more freedom on the other 16 holes? Dogleg the longer par fours to allow a shorter route to be taken? Any other tricks to "stuff" yardage into a course to meet the artifical 7000 yard requirement?

That seems totally like the thing to do in my opinion.

[Bart Bradley]

Please forgive this "newbie" question - but at a typical private club (as if there is such a thing, but bear with me) what percentage of golfers regularly play from the tips? Additionally, what percentage of those who regularly play from the tips don't necessarily have the game to do so?

I know those may be hard questions to accurately answer, but what I'm obviously getting at is what percentage of a club's membership really plays (or should be playing) a 7000 yard course?

At my two clubs, small and smaller.  In fact the more highly acclaimed club has very few plays from the tips...they don't even generally have a division in the tournaments for the tips except for the club championship.  I would say no more than 5-10% at the most (and both of my clubs are "golfers clubs").

BUT, both of my clubs have hosted significant state or national tournaments and without the tips this would be nearly impossible.  For example, we hosted a USGA championship, and although they didn't use the tips on every hole, every day, I think they required the flexibility that the back tees provide.  Hosting this sort of tournament certainly increases the likelihood that your course will be considered a "top private club".

I see both sides of this debate.  The course is mostly there for the members...but the person shelling out the money wants the most opportunities to promote the course as great.

Tom D.:  I am sure you consider these sorts of mandates on a case by case basis... some are probably easier to swallow than others.  I don't see how, after weighing all of the circumstances, deciding to proceed would be "eating your principles".  Likewise, I wouldn't condemn you for weighing all of the details and passing on a job.  Doesn't almost every job you take come with some compromises from what you would consider to be ideal?  Good luck....sounds like you might need it.

Bart

[John Kavanaugh]

To follow up my post from a couple of weeks back, just to let you all know, I heard back from the "golf guy" hired by that client a couple of weeks back.  

They want a full design and shaping proposal from us to do the course, AS LONG AS we are amenable to making the golf course at least 7,000 yards.  I'm assured that it is imperative that their course be 7,000 yards long in order to achieve their goals of being considered a top private club in their market.  I guess my own past body of work can't be entered into evidence, because they know their market better than I do.

Kelly,

Don't you think the comment above is enough to conclude that Doak has lost some respect for the client.  Havn't you read time and time again from Tom how a design has been comprimised because he could not do exactly as he wanted.  As someone who lives near and occasionally plays a Doak course I'm a bit tired of hearing that it was the owners fault.  Sounds to me that he is going into this project with a crutch.

[John Moore II]

Kelly-I think the reaction is due to the fact that he is being forced to do a 7000 yd course, whether it fits the property or not. 7000 yards is fine, if its the best fit, but to say "I must have 7000 yards and I don't care if it fits" is wrong. Thats what people are up at arms about

[Chip Gaskins]

Were the outstanding golden age courses opened from 1910s-1930s like Pine Valley, National Golf Links, or Shinnecock Hills much longer (10-15%) when they opened than the preceding great courses that opened earlier like Garden City, Chicago Golf, or Maidstone?

Did Crump or Flynn or Fownes, etc every say I need to make sure my new courses continue to push the limits on length if they are to be considered great?

Chip

[Peter Pallotta]

Off Kelly's post, it does strike me that what RTJ meant by a "7,000 yard championship test" -- or what that came to mean, on the ground -- isn't much related to what Tom D (or any of the architects here) would do with a 7,000 yard mandate.  Is it an artificial limit? Probably. But what isn't?

Peter

[Matthew Hunt]

OT, but it stikes me as odd that he got 'advice' AFTER hiring you, that seems to be a fundimental bussiness management mistake But who am I to talk.

Could you not remind him the two highest ranked Private Clubs in the world are less than 7000 yards (PV and CP). Are there any 'top clubs' that the member tees are 7000+?

Could you not route the course, design the optimum and then put in the 'Big Ego' sticks?

[John Moore II]

Peter-what we are trying to say is that RTJ used advertising to make the 7000 yard course the only courses worthy of a championship. And this mindset still holds true today. If courses aren't 7000+ yards long, they are not seen as true championship courses. Is that wrong? Maybe, but its the facts. RTJ and the ads do not relate to architects today, but the idea that clubs have about what makes a club good is based on that old assessment.
-Chip-I believe those clubs were longer during that time because technology was improving, same as today. In order for holes to play the same today as they did 20 years ago, they have to be longer, no way around it.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom,
I wonder if and when you and the new Riverfront owners get together, the topic of course length will come up. (Right now the course is less than 6800 from the blues).

There are few holes with more room such as 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 (by only a few yards), 9 (if you do something really crazy), 10 (very easy), the rest of the course not much room.  The 15th tee could be extended another 40 yards for a 240 plus yard carry over the marsh (not for me I'll tell you).

On the other hand another comment about tee locations:  the forward tees at the par 3 4th and par 3 13th demand short shots but hard ones for anybody.  The holes have a lot a lot of character from those spots.

[John Moore II]

Kelly-my point was that people do not seem to be outraged by the 7000 yards so much as it seems that he is being forced to do it. I do agree though, the owner may not win an arguement with Tom, but he may be set in what he wants as well.

[paul cowley]

....maybe build it as 7,000 yds.....but make it a par 73.

[Mike Golden]

I don't see what the problem is with an owner who wants something to a certain specification.  If Tom doesn't want to do the project he is certainly entitled to pass on it without is causing a major issue.  I'm sure this happens all the time with almost every commercial building project.

[JESII]

In the first post Tom clearly uses the word "PROPOSAL"...in my line of work, we make proposals before we get the job...I don't think this is a job Tom is actually going to pursue with all his heart...if at all.

Tom?

Regardless, you seem to be over-hyped about 7,000 yards lately and I cannot imagine why...

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