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Dan Moore

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Show Us Your "Shorts": Langford and the Short Hole Template
« on: January 11, 2008, 02:21:57 PM »
On another thread Phil McDade makes a passioned argument in favor of his contention that the 7th at Lawsonia is a MacRaynor template short hole.  I respectfully disagreed and we will revist the debate next year on site and in person.  Instead I feel the 3rd at Spring Valley is much closer to the Short template than is Lawsonia's 7th.  Langford/Moreau's connection to the MacDonald design school is an interesting topic for reasearch and discussion and needs much more research.  In that spirit we continue.

Help us determine if Spring valley's 3rd and Lawsonia's 7th are modeled after the template "Short" holes of the MacDonald school by posting your photos of template "Short" holes.  

I'll start with my contender, the 3rd at Spring Valley.  At 134 yds to a slightly raised plateau green and designed to be surrounded by sand, it seems to meet the criteria.  Here is the photographic evidence.  The course was built without the sand on the design drawings so you will need to use your imagination.  A copy of the drawing from the owner's irrigation map should help.  

I'll post photos of Lawsonia's 7th later on.  







« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 10:51:42 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 04:37:02 PM »
15th at CPC


wsmorrison

Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 04:56:34 PM »
The 6th hole on the other Merion


Phil McDade

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 05:09:46 PM »
Joel:

Was the 15th part of Raynor's original routing plan?  :) Then surely it must be a Short.

Here's an except from the G. Bahto Short description:

"Macdonald always felt there was room for improvement in a golf hole, so he (and later Raynor) surrounded his versions of this genre' with a sea of sand - elevating the green to make the target more dramatic and intimidating. These Shorts were nearly always drawn as a squarish looking green with a larger surrounding enclosure indicating sand bunkering."

Is the 15th at Cypress a squarish green? It looks from the picture more like an elongated rectangle, perhaps angled a bit away from the tee. The green also looks like it "sits" slightly lower than its surrounds; what seems to be a key element of a Short is a green somewhat higher than its surrounds (the GCA interview w/ Bahto has a picture of the 12th at Shoreacres, which appears to play as something of a drop shot but nonetheless has a green elevated from its surrounds and flanked/fronted by bunkering.




Dan Moore

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 05:10:03 PM »
Wayne Joel,

Do you think those are MacDonald template shorts?  If so, why?  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 05:10:23 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 05:13:37 PM »
Not sure about "Wayne Joel," (Billy's half-brother?) but here's Yale 5, in media res:


Dan Moore

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 05:39:30 PM »
Nice Mark.  Is that one of yours?  

An interesting querstion is the extent to which Langord traveled the country after college so that he would have seen other versions of the short.  As a Columbia student in NYC in 1910-1911 its likely he would have seen NGLA.  L/M maintained an office in Florida in the 1920's and Langford had a home in Lake Worth where he spent the winters and designed the Lake Worth GC.  

We might as well go to the original MacDonald template.  From Ran's review of NGLA.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 05:40:37 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

RJ_Daley

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 05:53:47 PM »
George B., doesn't mention the frequency or criteria of whether a 'short' usually has or must have a depression or soap dish sort of feature within the green.  Yet the few true Raynor shorts I've seen, do have that feature.  

In Dan's photo of Spring Valley #3, a suggestion of a sidesoap dish or pocket is found.

I wish I could locate some photos I've seen of Lester George's restoration work at the Greenbrier Resort White course and the 18th  finishing "short" hole.  I felt that it was splendid work.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 06:01:59 PM »
Dan, I'm also not sure you are calling for folks to post photos of what they believe are 'contenders/pretenders' to the legacy of other archie's interpretations of a short hole, or what?   To my understanding, if it is to be other archie's versions of a hole that is one thing, but if it is their effort to create a 'template' then it would have to be duplicated quite faithul in these universally understood design features... si or no?  

I have a few photos of another archie's interesting presentation of a short hole of clever design, but simply not a MacRaynor template.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Moore

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 06:27:15 PM »
I was asking for photos of MacRaynor templates; holes they designed and built so we could analyze whether the Lawsonia holes fit the MacRaynor template definitions.  

I would love it if some of the MacDonald Raynor experts (Doak and Bahto et al) would weigh in on the question of what constitutes a template Short hole and if the Langford holes fit the definition.  

I don't see a problem with posting examples other archie's interpretations of the template.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

RJ_Daley

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2008, 06:45:48 PM »
Well, here is what 'may' be another archie's interpretation of a short hole, 'concept', by an archie familiar with Raynor, as I understand it.  The hole is about the 5th or 6th at North Shore CC in Menasha, WI, designed by Leonard MacCumber.  I think Mr. Hepner mentioned that MacCumber worked as an engineer with Raynor on a Minnesota course.  Anyway, this is not a template, for sure.  But, it has interesting and creative features that could be an interpretation.  

It is a drop shot of about 140ish yards, down about 10-15 ft, to a green that is sort of an upsidedown tea cup saucer.  Obviously, the front snarly bunker looms large.  There is interesting movement within the pushed up and crowned green.  It is surrounded by a wide depression of a chipping or putting area, and yet it has the punchbowl flavor.  I think it is really one of the most unique holes of a short genre I have seen.  
tee view

closer

from behind
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

M. Shea Sweeney

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 07:01:08 PM »





wsmorrison

Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 09:32:26 PM »
Dan,

No, of course not.  Although George Bahto at one point thought that Raynor designed the West Course.  I have no idea why or if he still does.

This is simply a short hole.  I didn't realize a request for short holes had to be limited to those by Macdonald, Raynor, Langford or Banks.  I suspected it was a request for template holes, but I was hoping it was not.  I believe non-template short holes can be far superior to the templates, although the Short Hole at NGLA is awesome.  

While I don't think the 6th at Merion West is a supreme example of non-template short holes, it is rarely seen or discussed so I posted it.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 09:32:38 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Dan Moore

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2008, 11:51:02 PM »
Wayne, I didn't think so.  Looks like a great drop shot par 3.  Why do we need to find a box for everything?  

In any event I started this to explore the connection between Langford and MacDonald/Raynor given the similarities in the look of some of their features, bunkers and pushed up greens.  Did Langford copy the Templates, use them for inspiration etc.  I see the influence of the short template in the 3rd at Spring Valley Phil in the 7th at Lawsonia.  I'll have photos of the 7th sometime tommorow.  

I'd love it if we could get more photos of MacDonald, Raynor or Banks Short holes.  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 11:52:15 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Art Roselle

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2008, 11:56:54 PM »
Joel:

Here's an except from the G. Bahto Short description:

"Macdonald always felt there was room for improvement in a golf hole, so he (and later Raynor) surrounded his versions of this genre' with a sea of sand - elevating the green to make the target more dramatic and intimidating. These Shorts were nearly always drawn as a squarish looking green with a larger surrounding enclosure indicating sand bunkering."



I think the 3rd at Yeamans meets that description pretty well.  I have always thought of that as the standard template look of a Short.



Or, here is the picture from this site's profile, which has a slightly different look given the angle and dormant Bermuda




Kyle Harris

Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 08:08:37 AM »
Banks Short at Mountain Lake:



Another view of the 6th at Merion West:


Joe Hancock

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 08:42:56 AM »
The 7th at the Mines is simple in design, but provides a nice slope behind the green for the smart play to utilize and avoid the underclub in the bunker thing. Take a little extra club and aim a bit to the right of where you want it to end up, even though the green falls slightly left to right. Fun.....






Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

wsmorrison

Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2008, 09:07:46 AM »
"Why do we need to find a box for everything?"

Dan,

I couldn't agree more!  

Dan Moore

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2008, 09:48:54 AM »
Joe,  You jumped the gun.  We'll have the redan discussion in the context of the 4th at Lawsonia.  Maybe the 2nd at Kingsley for this one.  A wonderful modern "Short."

Yeaman's and Mountain lake are what I see as the typical Short hole.  Add the bunkers to Spring valley's 3rd and think those holes are very similar.

This is a good time to move on the Lawsonia's 7th.  Raynor's short at Lookout Mountain and this hole share some similarities.  





A bunker originally was located in this hollow left of the green.  


The view leaving the 8th tee.
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Eric_Terhorst

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2008, 10:07:24 AM »
This pic is from the book "Chicago Golf Club 1892-1992"  

Copyright The Chicago Golf Club




George_Bahto

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2008, 08:37:49 PM »
"George Bahto at one point thought that Raynor designed the West Course"

NEVER SAID THAT
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Dan Moore

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2008, 08:44:17 PM »
George,

Any opinion on whether Langford's 3rd at Spring Valley or 7th at Lawsonia, pictured above, qualify as template Short holes?

Here is an example of a short that Phil may contend backs his position the Lawsonia's 7th qualifies as a MacRaynor Short.

Raynor's Short at Lookout Mountain
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 08:53:04 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Golf Holes Only Please
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2008, 09:18:16 PM »
Wow...at a first quick glance I thought that WAS the 7th at Lawsonia, but not from the teeing angle.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Langford and the Short Hole Template
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2008, 11:03:46 PM »
Dan:

Unfortunately, I have not seen Langford’s work in person and Ronny Forse has been bugging me to look at Langford for years. No excuses for this, but most of his work is in areas I don’t often get to. Aside from that I have my hands full trying to garner as much information about the nearly 100 courses that have my main interest.

I’ve been trying to figure whether if Mr. Langford was indeed a protegee of sorts of the Macdonald philosophies but I cannot come up with a direct tie in.

He certainly was influenced by the Macdonald / Raynor style but more so to the Banks style which has a little different look in Banks’ ORIGINAL work. You really cannot rely too much when comparing holes that have been modified or altered ....  especially if the green pad has been altered. Sometimes this cannot be determined unless you have original plans or very early aerials.

Ron feels there is more Banks similarities in Langford’s work.

About the 7th hole pictured above, Dan, the main similarity in that photo is the built up green. What is missing (if that is the original design of the green) is the lack of surround bunkering or hazarding of some sort.

This is a hole meant to test the short iron play.

What better way than to define the target, leaving little chance for error and if in error, the recovery should be difficult. If the target is successfully hit, the putting surface usually does not leave you easy birdie attempt. Macdonald was impressed with 5-Brancaster and 8-TOC and used them as basic inspiration.

Do you know if 7-Lawsonia is original as shown?

Langford seemed to seek out green sites similar to Raynor and Banks - terracing on a hillside a lot.
I cannot tell if Langford was a follower of the Macdonald/Raynor style but the influence is quite often being evident.
I also tried to figure out if Joe Bartholomew who did so much in Louisiana followed through with the Macdonald/Raynor style. If he did, it was just on a few occasions. Joe B. worked for Raynor before going out on his own after he completed Metairie CC.

Likewise the work of Raynor Barton in New England - did he continue with the basic concept once he left Raynor’s employ? Here again, only in a few instances.  

Concerning the internal features on these Short holes: Certainly there was often the touted “horseshoe” feature but this does not mean that feature had to be on the green. There were many instances where it was not. I think these were onsite decisions made in the field. There were many variations on the surfaces of the Short holes ...... again, I’m speaking of original designs, in many cases, not necessarily what is there now.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Phil McDade

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Re:Show Us Your "Shorts": Langford and the Short Hole Template
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2008, 12:40:19 PM »




About the 7th hole pictured above, Dan, the main similarity in that photo is the built up green. What is missing (if that is the original design of the green) is the lack of surround bunkering or hazarding of some sort.

This is a hole meant to test the short iron play.

What better way than to define the target, leaving little chance for error and if in error, the recovery should be difficult. If the target is successfully hit, the putting surface usually does not leave you easy birdie attempt.


George:

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative reply. As for the 7th at Lawsonia, my guess (strictly a guess, but semi-educated) is that Langford viewed the severity of the drop-off as providing enough difficulty with the recovery as to not warrant the bunker surrounds usually associated with Shorts. I've been down there (short-right, at the very base of the green platform), and it's no fun -- a blind, steeply uphill pitch  that's basically a pure guess. But, within the framework of how a Short ought to work (based on my readings), entirely appropriate -- I had a 7-iron in my hand, to a large (albiet deceptively large) target, and I missed it; I deserved the difficult shot that followed. I think Pat Mucci has described the shot value inherent in Shorts as one of precision, and I wasn't quite precise enough, and thus ended with a very tough recovery. (My own thought, looking at the Lookout Mtn. short designed by Raynor, which very much looks like Lawsonia's 7th, is that most golfers -- even an 18-handicapper like me -- would prefer to be short and bunkered at Lookout Mtn.'s Short than short at Lawsonia's 7th. But perhaps not; that's a judgement based just on the picture).

Wayne (and others) -- part of the interest from some of the Langford wingnuts about this issue (and templates in general) isn't so much their merit as golf holes, or their aesthetics. It's about the connection between Langford's highly stylized, engineered look, and that of the Macdonald/Raynor/Banks school.

For instance, one could look at the work of Flynn, and compare it to the work of Ross (speaking very broadly here, and I'm open to other arguments) and come to this conclusion: Both seemed to be "naturalists" as GCA's, and used the lay of the land, terrain movements, and "natural" hazards (creeks, ponds, ridges, even something like a quarry) to create challenge and variety in their holes. I don't know whether Ross and Flynn ever met and compared notes, but I can see those two architects taking a similar approach to their design of golf holes without having ever done so, or even being familiar with each other's work.

But with Langford and the Macdonald/Raynor/Banks style, the look is so similar, and so "engineered," that it seems to beg the question -- did Langford ever encounter their works, or discuss golf architecture with them? Both Langford and Raynor were civil enginers. Langford was a very good golfer, like Macdonald, was educated at Yale, and spent time on the East Coast. He arguably had ample opportunity, as Dan has suggested, to see notable works like the National, or Raynor's re-working of the Chicago Golf Club (Langford ran a golf course in Chicago). Whitten, rumored to be working on a major piece for GDigest on Langford, has suggested Langford never met Raynor. Yet one can't help but look at holes like Raynor's 3rd at Yeaman's Hall and Langford's 3rd at Spring Valley -- or the 7th at Lawsonia and its counterpoint at Raynor's Lookout Mtn. -- and not think there is some connection.

Richard Daley -- that is one neat-looking hole. Is their a more below-the-radar great course in Wisconsin than North Shore? I'm doubtful -- post more pics if you have them!