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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« on: January 07, 2008, 09:38:19 AM »
How good were the different sections – Courses by Country, Feature Interviews, the Discussion Group, In My Opinion, Art & Architecture, and My Home Course – in 2007? And more importantly, what can we do better in 2008?

Several observations:

*Ben and I are in the process of refining/improving the presentation of the site. It sits on old software and improved functionality is coming, hopefully at the end of the first quarter. The ability to search for topic specific material will be greatly improved.

* The Feature Interviews will be with less authors in 2008 than in 2007. I never intended to do book reviews per se but the benefit of doing Feature Interviews with authors is that they can indeed write. Some folks who would make a great interview struggle in expressing their ideas. After the Mark Frost December Interview on The Match which will be posted later this week, you won’t see a book profiled for seven months.

* 227 people were added to the Discussion Group (and yes, that means 227 people were deleted – and one person quit for the fourth time!). Interest from people to join and be one of the 1,500 registered participants remains near or at an all-time high. Several people have told me that they think 2007 ‘newbies’ were the best crop yet. The only way to join the Discussion Group is to email me at rmorrissett@cabotlinks.com re: your interests in golf course architecture and then wait until we find a spot for you. Upon emailing back someone letting him/her know that he/she has been registered, I generally just say have fun. My question: should I say more? For instance, should I provide some helpful hints (stick to topics related to golf course architecture, don’t use the word ‘I’ every fifth word when making a post, end posts with questions as that is a good way to stimulate discussion (always a good thing for a Discussion Group!), etc. Should I just leave well enough alone or would providing guidelines be helpful? If so, what should the guidelines be? As always, one rule that does apply is that anyone who stifles discussion or who tries to impose his will to such a degree as to hinder meaningful discussion will find their spot taken by someone else with better etiquette.

* The profiles in Courses by Country continue to grow. My goal is to do about twelve new ones per year, which I didn’t quite get to this year due to another writing obligation. Still, profiles on courses from eight plus countries were added/revised which always make me happy in the context that the site will never become too United States-centric. We got lucky several times and ended up with great photo-taking conditions at Oakmont, Sleepy Hollow and a few other places - in general, I thought the photo quality was the best ever.

* When the underlying software is upgraded, the Art & Architecture section will be changed to include other artists such as Josh Smith. We will endeavor to have more updates within that section to make it less static.

*We have a great My Home Course entry to add on Musgrove Mills once we have the ability to add photos into the site faster than one at a time. We have a bunch of good photos from Tom W. on this SC course, which many think is Arnold Palmer’s best design in the United States. When submitting a My Home Course, don’t send bad photos. Take the time to go out early in the morning or late in the afternoon and get proper photos. And no photos of golf cart paths – they ruin any picture and don’t do your course justice.

* Please peruse the Contribution Section. Thanks to these people, for the fifth year in a row, we raised more money than ever before. As a result, GolfClubAtlas.com is going to start paying several professional writers to submit extensive pieces of architectural interest. The intent, as always, is to add high quality content to the site. Articles in the 5,000 to 10,000 word range are almost non-existent in the print media where word and photo limits always apply. GolfClubAtlas.com is now going to step up and 1) encourage such detailed articles to be written and 2) house them.  Personally, I am VERY excited about this new aspect and it is all thanks to the people who voluntarily donate.

* Along those same lines, it was determined this morning at GolfClubAtlas.com world headquarters (picture Google’s campus out west, just smaller), that GolfClubAtlas.com will again run commercial free for 2008. The board meeting was adjourned when Baby Jack spilled his Fruit Loops into my coffee.

* We have been approached by folks in Oregon and South Africa to arrange a couple of GolfClubAtlas gatherings. We will be doing so, with the South Africa trip slated for February 2009. More information will be posted as those events take shape. Also, Ben Cowan-Dewar and I expect to make an announcement re: our project in Nova Scotia within one month. Hopefully, there will be at least one opportunity this fall for folks to come by during construction and get a guided tour by the architect and to hear him explain his thoughts on the design process.
 
* I hope everyone knows how much Ben helps me run this site. He does a lot of time-consuming, behind the scenes work that is beyond my pathetically low technical capability. The site is materially better for his help and guidance.

Those are my thoughts – what are yours?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 10:53:02 AM by Ran Morrissett »

Mike Sweeney

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 09:47:57 AM »
My question: should I say more?

No. In the words of Ran, the site 'self regulates" itself.

New poster Chip got killed a couple of times and came back with a good thread on Merion 4 and 11. If people want to figure it out they will.

I have been told that the Mountain Lake pictures on my review are tired, perhaps Kyle can help me with an update.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 09:48:28 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2008, 09:52:29 AM »
Dear Ran,

I think the site regulates itself pretty well but it would be good if you could chime in now and then with an opinion...

I do have one request which I think many have asked for and that is a book list that maybe we can all give opinions on or even give a rating similar to the amazon.com ratings.

I feel that every month there is someone that is new to GCA that needs a recommended reading list and where best to get that than on here?

Thank you again for having this site.  If it was not for this site I would probably never have met Jeff Brauer who always encouraged me to believe in myself and to jump into the business with both feet. I would have remained in the construction business...maybe I should have!

I would never have met everyone at Archipalooza at Sand Hills where people like Tom Doak, Lester George, Ben and Bill and David Kidd were so helpful in everything I asked about.

There are so many on here that have been helpful in my short career, people like Brad Klein who ALWAYS answers my emails when asking a question or TE Paul who always gets us to think about our answers and is such a superb host when I visit his area.  

My good friend Wayne Morrison who is easy to beat on his home course...the list goes on...George Pazin who has always encouraged me to believe in my dream or Rcih Goodale who always brings a touch of humour to the arguments that entail. Pat Mucci and John Kavanaugh are two great posters who always manage to come up with interesting threads..

A number of my colleagues especially in Europe do read this site and do not contribute near enough in my opinion and that is a shame.

Here is to a great 2008 and I promise to contribute more pics and opinions this year.  I might even get around to doing My Home Course for Norway...

All the best Brian.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 09:56:31 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2008, 10:03:10 AM »
Ran -

THANK YOU for a great 2007. The site continues to be dominant.

I have but one complaint about the Discussion Board.

It is too "clubby" or "chummy" or whatever term you wish to use. The social aspects of the discussion group, which are invaluable and should be conducted in private, are encroaching upon the educational aspects. In my estimation there is too much of the following.

* Pictures without context, with the author assuming that everyone knows which course or even which hole is depicted.

* Posts with inside references which assume that the reader has been following every thread for the past seven years.

* Posts with inside references which assume that the reader was there that time in the company of a tiny fraction of participants.

The discussion board would be better off if participants imagined themselves in the shoes of someone who just signed up last week.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Mike Sweeney

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 10:10:44 AM »
Ran,

You also need to find a space/section for mini reviews or educational content. Case in point, Michael's review of CC of Troy:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31700;start=msg620329#msg620329

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2008, 10:17:47 AM »
I give this site solid A's in all areas, and I truly think it's better than it ever has been.  That being said....

1. Michael Moore makes some very good points.  We do need to try to avoid the inside jokes and inside references.  I am guilty of this myself, and I regret it.  I do think the social aspects of this discussion group have great value, but inside references are annoying.  Michael gives sound advice.

2. As long as work is being done on the technical side, I will repeat the oft-mentioned request for a more functional search capability.  

That's it by me... the rest works wonderfully.

Now off to make my 2008 contribution....

TH

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2008, 10:26:22 AM »
Grade?  A.  This is a fantastic resource that, to me, gets better the more I participate. Funny how that works.  The voluntary contribution is a bargain.  I made mine last week.

I appreciate your efforts to further improve things, with improved search capability being number one on my list.  Mike's suggestion regarding a place to house mini reviews is a great one.  I'm considering a trip to the Netherlands this fall and it would be nice if all of Phillip's posts were easier to access.  

It would nice if you were able to participate in more discussion.


Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2008, 11:25:29 AM »
Grade B-.   Maybe I have been on this site for so long it seems like many of the discussions are things we discussed years ago.

I would like to see GCA used more as a resource for the future.  If GCA wanted to make itself a very valuable site in the world of golf it needs to be able to categorize and store data someplace.   As an example, if someone wanted to do research on a golf course or something like irrigation, they should be able to access it within a category on the left instead of searching the discussion group.   Since you already have "Courses By Country" shouldn't topics regarding these golf courses be listed within these reviews.

My other suggestions are:

1) Ran & Ben to be more active.
2) Ran and Ben to delete the OT within 5 days.
3) Encourage people who posted here years ago to return.

Good luck for 2008.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2008, 11:28:02 AM »
Ran,

GCA is a great site and I appreciate the work you have done.  Having longer/more detailed written articles will be a great addition to the site and am willing to pony up more in contributions to help if needed.

I would like to suggest an idea along similar lines of what's been said in previous posts.  Course reviews and feedback of where to play, stay, and do are both resourceful and very redundant.  A new section where these links could be placed and updated would be beneficial to those traveling, maintained in that section, and would help keep the DG better focused.

I am offering my time to go thru the DG over the past couple of years and make a list of these threads and organize them by region or city.

Thanks,

Kalen

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2008, 11:32:28 AM »
Joel:

I would agree that we've relatively run out of topics to discuss.  Rare is it indeed that we have an original topic these days.  But that's just a function of quantity... which is the main strength of this discussion group.  I've been through many predecessors (as have several other regulars) and what continues to amaze me about this forum is how constantly active it is.  That makes it worth visiting constantly... it never stays the same.  Others were not this way.  

As for Ran & Ben to be more active - deleting OT topics - that would require a lot more work for them than they have typically taken on.  I'm not comfortable even asking them for this.  But then again, I'm fine with OT topics. If I don't want to read them, I skip them.   But talk about an issue that has been beaten to death....

My grades continue to be all As.  But perhaps it's because I've been through the predecessors.  Man if this place is a B-, then those were F-----.  And they weren't.  They had their good times.

TH



Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2008, 11:36:02 AM »
What is the difference between "Courses by Country/by Architect" and "My Home Course"?

It would be much easier to have just one set of course reviews, but multiple ways of browsing them. By country, by architect, by creation time (the current "by architect" is a hodgepodge of architect and timeline) and perhaps also by reviewer.

I'd also find a Google Maps link useful. Maybe there could be a standardized template for entering technical data.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2008, 11:49:13 AM »
A- (because almost everything in this world can be improved!)

thanks Ran for GCA..I've learned a lot and made some great new friends

i hope all our newbies aren't afraid to start new threads, and here's hoping that all future discussions stay civil
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 12:03:09 PM »
I have gotten in grief both at home and at more than one club for comments I have made on this site but I continue to post under my full name.  I do not understand why some individuals change names according to their moods and it is tollerated.  I do not understand why some individuals start more topics not about the prime subject than on and it is tolerated.  I do not understand why some people are more interested in making friends instead of making a point.  I have a simple solution.  Make me a moderator with the right to delete posters and off topic posts.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2008, 12:14:14 PM »
Ran, like everyone else I'm very glad to have access to the site. If the proposed search improvements work, my only gripe will be gone.
Regarding OT posts I wonder why we cannot simply have a second forum? OT posts, or inappropriate posts could simply be moved to Forum B, rather than deleted.

John, regarding members who's behaviour you find annoying or even unacceptable, you might try doing what I'm now doing - and cease all interaction with them.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2008, 12:17:55 PM »
Grade A. I love this site.

My primary suggestion would be the inclusion of routing maps for profiled golf courses. Many of the reviews describe the routing -- how each hole relates to the rest of the course and the site features. A map (especially a topographical one for Tom Doak) would supplement these passages and make these points much more clearly.

Thank you for all of your efforts, Ben and Ran.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 04:20:15 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 12:36:27 PM »
JK:

Having been through your efforts as self-declared moderator, I believe I can live without you taking on this role in an official capacity.  I also tend to believe pigs will indeed fly before you get this role here.

My preference remains for leaving things as is.  I've found in past experiences that too much moderation is even worse than too little.

In any case, you and I of course will continue to look at this site very very differently, as I most definitely would more rather make a friend than a point.

I am cringing in anticipation of your response to this....

 ;D

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 01:42:19 PM »
My other suggestion is the "Feature Interview".  It seems to me that if you use a few people who use this site to pick 2 (pick a number) of the most influential people you know in golf that would be willing to do an interview, you could get dozens if not hundreds of interviews.

As an example, I know 2 very well known architects who probably would be more than willing to do an interview.

As a result, you end of with another resource and a vast section of interviews from people in the business.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2008, 01:56:55 PM »
Ran,
I'd give them a little guidance as you would introducing a friend to a new big group.

i.e.
"There is nothing wrong with asking the same question again and again."  even though you will have people say that is has been discussed before.

I've never seen an identical thread even if it is an identical question.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2008, 02:01:01 PM »
Mike - that's a good point also.

Still, I believe people need to understand when their well-meaning questions receive little in the way of detailed answers, which does happen from time to time.  People do get tired of answering the same question over and over... and rather than leave the asker wondering why, I tend to tell them it's been discussed before.

TH



Andy Troeger

Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2008, 02:04:49 PM »
This may end up being a non-issue or solved with the improvement of the search engine, but it would be neat to have a section on the discussion group threads on specific courses. The one that has been resurrected a few times about Black Mesa is a good example that due to the variances of opinions might be as good of a resource as the course profile itself. Kalen has done a few similar threads with many photos as have many others.

Grade A- for similar reasons to Paul. Will also be making my 2008 contribution shortly.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2008, 02:09:51 PM »
Ran:

As a newbie this year, I would have been very receptive to an introduction to the site.  It took me a week to figure out how to post pictures, for example.

The site is excellent and addicting...I check it nearly every day, sometimes several times a day.

I look forward to getting to know some of the other members personally.  I have found the site to have a bit of a clique atmosphere at times.  I am astounded at the number of interesting, intelligent, thoughtful people who post here.

Isn't golf amazing that it can bring so many people together?

Grade: A.

Bart (I only use one name for posting)

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »
Ran - overall I think the site deserves an A grade for being the best resource of its kind, one that provides lots of information, lots of education, lots of enjoyment. That has to be good!

As to different components of the site - I think the best bits are Courses by Country and the DG. I would give A+ to CbC on the basis that I seem to recall more good entries than before, not to mention the great geographic reach. I think they are - and I am not just saying this because you write them! - probably the best reads on the site for the way they combine insight into the courses at hand with a sense of historical and comparative GCA perspective.

I think the DG is less even, and the good bits are leavened with some other tiresome features (absent from CbC,  so I mark it down by comparison - though you could reasonably argue that the shortfalls in quality are compensated by the sheer volume of copy).

The other parts of the site made less impression on me this year so I won't rate them (though I think that maybe means in the case of Feature Interviews they were not quite as striking as in previous years).

Re My Home Course - I will offer you something on Huntercombe during this quarter.

As to whether you should advise Newbies on how to behave - I say No. Most of the rest of us learnt OK how to behave. And you could argue that if someone is keen enough to join then maybe they ought to have been observant enough to know what is expected and what is not. Those who had to bang their head against the wall first and learn their lessons in public  - well that is instructive for all concerned. I think you should preserve the mystery and the majesty of the moderator!

That said, there are newbie guides people can be referred to if they are keen - maybe these could be displayed somewhere?

I like the idea of paying contributors for some longer articles....and we are blessed that you choose to keep the site commercial free.

As a number of others have said, if we can find our way round the site in an easier way - that would satisfy 98% of gripes!

Philip

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2008, 04:34:25 PM »
Ran, you and the web site had much to do with the work that has happened at Sleepy Hollow. Without the site and the confidence and knowledge it gave a few people at SHCC we would have had just another expensive poorly thought out renovation in Westchester County.


Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2008, 04:54:14 PM »
Ran,
I think the discussion group is what it is and if I feel there hasn't been so many great threads recently then it's upto me to start more. That said I have been disappointed with it of late.

Speaking personally I really enjoy seeing historical information given an airing on here, but rightly or wrongly, I don't think that's been so prominent this year.  Thank you Bob Crosby, Tony Poppi, Mike Cirba, Mark Stamm, Joe Bausch and many others, but the group suffered a big loss when Tom MacWood departed.

Also is it me or has the humour been less of late?

By the high standards of previous years the discussion group gets a B- from me.

Keep the course reviews coming. A+.  From Argentina to Belgium in one year . Wow.

When you reformat you might like to sort out if it’s Architecture Timeline or Courses by Architect? It appears with different link names on different screens.


The Q&A’s with authors have never seemed like “Reviews” to me.  It is apparent they are publicising a new book rather than dissecting it. E.g. it would be fascinating to ask Kevin Cook how he felt about writing such detail into his story (Tommy’s Honour) when he clearly couldn’t have been there.  How does he justify ascribing motives to his characters?  You seem to realise that these haven’t been the best interviews.

Many, many thanks for the effort you and Ben put into keeping the site going.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Grade for GolfClubAtlas.com in 2007?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2008, 05:07:00 PM »
Ran (and Ben):

Thanks for your continued stewardship of the site. As for specifics:

-- I thought the Courses by Country additions and updates were quite good this year, particularly in adding an non-US/UK sense of interesting architecture out there. The pictures are absolutely first-rate. I still think the Scottish and Irish sections are a bit thin, and could use the addition of meritorious but somewhat second-tier courses (say, the likes of Boat of Garten, a personal favorite, or Carne). But I recognize that's a matter of travel and opportunity.

-- I second strongly the suggestion by Mike Sweeney about somehow arranging for course write-ups by folks that perhaps aren't "My Home Courses" or deserve "Courses by Country" status. I found the CC of Troy thread to be one of the most interesting this year (particularly the pictures) and (this goes beyond improved search functioning) it would be nice to have a section devoted to these types of write-ups (the obscure Maine islands/Styles & Van Kleek thread is another one that comes to mind). Organized similar to C by C or MHC, with the addition of comments or simply linked as a thread.

-- I second Huck's views on OT threads and moderators. I, too, think a little bit of moderating is often worse than none at all, and (having started one, somewhat selfishly, this past year) I find the OT threads -- like I find much of the Discussion Board -- to be full of insights and information that I otherwise wouldn't know about. The Discussion Board is a lively place with the occasional lulls and over-the-top discussion, not unlike the great public forums of years past and present. That's what I like about it.