North Fulton Golf Course-another muni that could be great

« **on:** January 05, 2008, 10:52:11 PM »

I recently played 12 holes at North Fulton Golf Club and was completely (and pleasantly) surprised by the potential of the golf course if it somehow was restored to what could have been greatness.

According to the website, North Fulton was designed by Chandler Egan, Walter Hagen, and Bobby Jones in 1937. Chandler Egan, unfortunately, passed away in 1936 so it is doubtful he was around to see the opening or had much to do with it at all

Nonetheless, the golf course makes great use of the terrain (fairly hilly) and a stream that meanders through the property.

Holes of particular note (in no order):
#9: a dogleg par 4, about 380 yards from the back tees with the stream angling across the fairway at the dogleg. The narrow, long green is elevated and at an angle to the fairway, with a large bunker guarding the right side.

#2: a short (360 yard) par 4, with a giant mound in the center of the fairway making the drive blind-there are in fact several blind drives on the golf course, including #1.

#11: a shortish par 3, downhill, with Raynor-like mounding short and right of the green.

I'll be back and play the entire golf course soon but, with the variety of both downhill and elevated approach shots to greens that are all interesting I am really intrigued about what could really be there for a faithful restoration. #3 had about 4 bunkers that had been taken out that looked very similar in nature to some at Pasatiempo. Maybe Mike Young could lend his expertise to this discussion.

« **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2008, 11:01:23 PM »

Mike,

It gets better as it goes along. If memory serves, that last few holes were terrific.

I think Bob Crosby may be involved in an effort to help bring some $$ into the place. It is certainly deserving.

Suffice to say that I think we should all be looking at the architectural historical greatness and heritage of public golf in our own backyards, and doing whatever we can to help restore excellence, which will hopefully help to bring the game and the magnificence of its playing fields to a new generation.

« **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2008, 08:18:08 AM »

Mike C. is right; N. Fulton gets even better toward the end of the round. I think that everybody that plays there and has any appreciation of GCA at all comes away with the same feeling about what could be.

How were the greens? I think they've put in Champion bermuda, which should help a lot with what was always the biggest problem at the course.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2008, 08:28:42 AM »

I'll have to go back soon and play the whole course. The last two holes did look very interesting.

The greens did look like Champion bermuda but were pretty slow so it was difficult to judge the quality. The drought apparently has had an impact on them.

« **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2008, 10:05:08 AM »

I have fond memories of North Fulton Golf Club because it's where I took up the game. The front nine gets a bit tight with drainage problems. The back nine is really solid. It's shoe-horned into a very tight piece of property and there's no way for any expansion.

The conditioning has always been questionable and the pace of play can be snail like. However, it's an ideal in town public facility.

From what I understand, all the pros used to come by North Fulton for a pre Masters tournament in the forties. Legend had it that the prize money wasn't much but it was made up in on course bets and side action.

« **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2008, 10:32:37 AM »

Bill,

I was just about to mention the "Pre-Masters" where Hogan, Snead and some othjers all played at North Fulton!

It was consistently ranked one of the top public courses in the country and it is a real shame what happened over the last 25 years or so.

One of my golf professional's father was the head pro at North Fulton from 1964-1985/6--Hume Cole Sr.

The city owned Chastain (N. Fulton), Brown's Mill, Bobby Jones, John A. White and Tup Holmes courses with a condition that they never be sold. I think it was American Golf Co. that came in and "leased" the courses from the city with some pretty bad results.

Conditioning is terrible, lawsuits flew from the pros who found themselves "screwed" by a national management company. The city did in fact pay lots of money to those pros, except Hume Cole Sr.

He died the same year American Golf took over and the city "succeeded" in not paying his estate one penny of what they said they would (hundreds of thousand of dollars).

Anyway, there are lots of great memories and stories. Hume Cole Jr. speaks of when the course was maintained with prison labor (at a very high level) and the abundance of natural wells throughout the property that for whatever reason are no longer able to be used to irrigate the course today.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2008, 11:21:47 AM »

I played North Fulton many times in the early '90s. It was a fun course with varying terrain and some very interesting shot options.

Unfortunately I only saw the course in its American Golf state, which was mediocre at best. A course doesn't have to be wall to wall green, but the greens usually didn't have a stich of grass by mid summer.

Of all the "city" courses in Atlanta, this was the best. It's a fun course that deserved better treatment.

Ken

« **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2008, 11:23:58 AM »

I can't see N. Fulton as ever being "great," mainly because the par 5's individually and as a collection are startlingly mundane. #10 and #17 both have structural limitations (the road and Nancy Creek) that would be tough to overcome.

Mike Golden is not the only person who's expressed the opinion that Chastain has unrealized potential. Maybe Mike Young could chime in. The par 4's are very strong, especially #'s 2, 9, 12 (Alps?), 13, 15 and 18.

« **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2008, 11:40:55 AM »

I am very familiar with North Fulton and American Golf taking over as I did the deal. Before American Golf took over, the greens at most of the city's courses were dirt. The city had no idea what equipment they had at each course, and no understanding of golf course maintenance. To say the operation was a joke was putting it mildly. This was in the era that the city zoo misplaced an elephant and no one could account for it. Over the protest of then mayor Andrew Young, Betsy Baker (white northside woman) pushed through privatization. After putting hundreds of thousands into the 4 courses, American Golf had North Fulton playing more than 80,000 rounds a year. The conditions were vastly improved. North Fulton did and does have some drainage problems.
I don't know how American Golf is currently maintaining the course, most of their courses outside California have slipped considerably in maintenance. I think they have extended their contract with the City of Atlanta.
As for restoration, I have talked to Bob Crosby and I think it is called The Friends of Chastain Park. Except for a city government that would not be supportive and American Golf, who has little understanding of golf architecture, there is an opportunity to make it again one of the Southeast's best municipal courses.
It is one of the great failings of the USGA, and local golf associations that there is little interest in preserving these gems. But then many of us on this site are a bit more passionate than most golfers. And if I may say a bit more knowledgeable than most golfers.

« **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2008, 11:49:05 AM »

the course is in a beautiful location....not your typical "muni" location ala cedar crest in dallas or keney park in hartford.......it is too bad something couldn't be done to really bring this place back......it could make a lot of money just based on location alone

« **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2008, 02:05:01 PM »

North Fulton already does make money, and supports the other courses that don't have the layouts or the location like NF. It would cost a fortune to really bring it up to high end daily fee standards, and I can't see any way to pay for it.

Plus, while NF is a good layout, I personally don't see it as being great, even with a renovation. There's no sense of scale, the bunkering is uninteresting and there are a lot of really average holes, especially on the front nine. This is not The Knoll where an outstanding golf course has just gone to neglect. I would say its an excellent routing with a good golf course. That's not a slam because I do think it's above average, I just don't see anything amazing or different underneath.

The greens are much better than they were a few years ago, but they were so bad that's not saying much. The maintenance budget is still a bit thin, and the fairways still appear to be common bermuda, so there's still some work to be done.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2008, 02:35:48 PM »

The aerials I have of the course from 1949 show very interesting bunkers. With a talented shaper restoring them to the 1949 shape I think that alone would greatly enhance the course.
Naturally there would need to be a change in the common bermuda and that could be costly.
And therein lies the problem. How could an operator tell the city they are going to restore North Fulton and not make changes at the other courses. That wouldn't go over well in Atlanta.
However if some outside agency, Georgia Golf Association or such came in and performed a quality restoration, even if just on the scale of Wilmington, N.C., Atlanta would derive a huge amount of goodwill in the golf and tourism industries.
Incidentally Sam Snead spoke very highly of the course when I asked him if remembered it, and some locals told me that Byron Nelson greatly admired the course, but I suspect he was positive about most.
Nothing is going to happen at North Fulton except talk on GCAtlas.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2008, 03:18:38 PM »

Quote from: Lynn_Shackelford on January 06, 2008, 02:35:48 PM

... and that could be costly.
And therein lies the problem. How could an operator tell the city they are going to restore North Fulton and not make changes at the other courses. That wouldn't go over well in Atlanta.

Nothing is going to happen at North Fulton except talk on GCAtlas.

This is the essence of the matter, I think. The political problems posed by major work at N. Fulton are so enormous as to be prohibitive. The same thing happens in Fulton County government, education, and recreation; the N-S split and turf wars are just too intense.

« **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2008, 03:22:59 PM »

Quote from: SBusch on January 06, 2008, 02:05:01 PM

North Fulton already does make money, and supports the other courses that don't have the layouts or the location like NF. It would cost a fortune to really bring it up to high end daily fee standards, and I can't see any way to pay for it.

Plus, while NF is a good layout, I personally don't see it as being great, even with a renovation. There's no sense of scale, the bunkering is uninteresting and there are a lot of really average holes, especially on the front nine. This is not The Knoll where an outstanding golf course has just gone to neglect. I would say its an excellent routing with a good golf course. That's not a slam because I do think it's above average, I just don't see anything amazing or different underneath.

The greens are much better than they were a few years ago, but they were so bad that's not saying much. The maintenance budget is still a bit thin, and the fairways still appear to be common bermuda, so there's still some work to be done.

I think I would respectfully disagree with you on this, though with qualifications. If N. Fulton was renovated with modern turf, better drainage and restored bunkering, it would be a wonderful golf course.

Lynn S. mentions Wilmington Muni, and it is an excellent comparison; a nice trip back in time to a great era of GCA for a reasonable price. That's what N. Fulton COULD be. It won't, but it could be.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2008, 04:12:44 PM »

I'm always amazed when I hear the words restoration and "modern turf" in the same sentence.

On one hand we pine for the days of golf in the Golden Age, but just as often I hear refernces to erradicating common bermuda in the fairways and the wonders of Champions Bermuda on the greens.

It seems we want it both ways.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2008, 04:37:35 PM »

Quote from: jeffwarne on January 06, 2008, 04:12:44 PM

I'm always amazed when I hear the words restoration and "modern turf" in the same sentence.

On one hand we pine for the days of golf in the Golden Age, but just as often I hear refernces to erradicating common bermuda in the fairways and the wonders of Champions Bermuda on the greens.

It seems we want it both ways.

Yes, we do, and I see absolutely nothing wrong or inconsistent in that.

« **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2008, 05:05:07 PM »

I really like Chastain(North fulton).....walked it last week on a cold day...really cold day....
As LS says it will be hard to do anything there.....bob may wish to tell you more....but the politics stink.....and as with most municipalities the leases are so short no one can justify spending money....and as mentioned earlier....with neighbors that have no appreciation of golf architecture.....some wish for part of the course to become soccer fields....

« **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2008, 05:32:56 PM »

Actually A.G. you were quite correct in your phrasing as you used the word "renovation" with modern turf and "restoration"
of bunkers.

Call me crazy, I love the nostalgic feel of old common bermuda fairways-makes everything feel old-because it usually is.
I wonder if such a project would get done more easily if they could take on smaller tasks such as bunker restoration(a few at a time) and drainage without such added expensive feautures as regrassing all fairways.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2008, 06:42:06 PM »

Jeff,

Your "smaller tasks" scenario is actually what has been happening at North Fulton and the other Atlanta munis. All now have or will have Champion greens, which beats the hell out of dirt. Browns Mill even got some drainage thrown in. North Fulton could certainly use it.

Under the city's stewardship (read neglect) our golf courses were golf courses in name only. Under American Golf things have changed dramatically for the better. I don't know who's footing the bill or what AG is doing elsewhere, but here they've done a great job for 10's of thousands of public golfers.

It certainly would be nice if someone who knows what they're doing could get a crack at North Fulton, but I still wonder what they'd do with those par 5's.

As to the comment that the course is totally lacking in scale, I think that's a bit much but I can see where the thought comes from. You can have a course that is wide open in spaces and narrow in others, but it needs to make sense, and at North Fulton it just doesn't feel right. While many of the holes are wonderfully crafted, others strangely are not, mailed in as it were. You see a number of greens that are out of proportion to the hole and seem to have been treated as afterthoughts.

It's curious and frustrating.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 06, 2008, 08:53:07 PM »

Quote from: A.G._Crockett on January 06, 2008, 04:37:35 PM

Quote from: jeffwarne on January 06, 2008, 04:12:44 PM
I'm always amazed when I hear the words restoration and "modern turf" in the same sentence.

On one hand we pine for the days of golf in the Golden Age, but just as often I hear refernces to erradicating common bermuda in the fairways and the wonders of Champions Bermuda on the greens.

It seems we want it both ways.

Yes, we do, and I see absolutely nothing wrong or inconsistent in that.

I also see nothing inconsistent about replacing turf. The common bermuda may have even been good at the time it was planted, but years of inconsistent feeding, drought, and disease has resulted in mutations that leave the turf there a very poor surface for golf.

Lynn, are those aerials something that you could point us to? I'd love to see them.

I think American Golf did do some drainage work after this last extension, but a good portion of the course is in flood plain, and the rest is so compacted after years of running equipment on clay soils, that it's an uphill battle.

The politics are insurmountable. NF truly has a better chance of getting turned into soccer fields than a major upgrade.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 06, 2008, 10:59:20 PM »

I might should re-state some things I first mentioned.

North Fulton was a very good public course in its hey day of the 1940's through the 60's. Part of why the course was in far better shape then was no doubt due to far less wear and tear on a course that now is over run with play. 80,000 rounds!?!!? What COULD be in decent shape?

I am sure American Golf knew a lot more about maintaining a course than the city did but my main contempt for them was how they handled the "firing" of many long time people who had worked for the city and the courses for decades.

Unfortunately, I give little chance for any type of public/private partnership to work and invest any money in these courses. Right now, if any thing, the sentiment would be to turn the courses into parks or recreation fields that many feel would offer more enjoyment as those type of facilities for kids and families versus being golf courses.

Doesn't say much for how we have grown the game for everyone and also reflects a bias against what many still perceive as a rich white man's game.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 07, 2008, 12:47:57 AM »

Quote from: Lynn_Shackelford on January 06, 2008, 02:35:48 PM

The aerials I have of the course from 1949 show very interesting bunkers. With a talented shaper restoring them to the 1949 shape I think that alone would greatly enhance the course.
Naturally there would need to be a change in the common bermuda and that could be costly.
And therein lies the problem. How could an operator tell the city they are going to restore North Fulton and not make changes at the other courses. That wouldn't go over well in Atlanta.
However if some outside agency, Georgia Golf Association or such came in and performed a quality restoration, even if just on the scale of Wilmington, N.C., Atlanta would derive a huge amount of goodwill in the golf and tourism industries.
Incidentally Sam Snead spoke very highly of the course when I asked him if remembered it, and some locals told me that Byron Nelson greatly admired the course, but I suspect he was positive about most.
Nothing is going to happen at North Fulton except talk on GCAtlas.

Lynn,

I agree about the bunkers, I was mentioning that to someone tonight and remembered my tour of Rec Park with our now departed Emperor pointing out all the places where old bunkering had been grassed over-I saw several of those at North Fulton as well.

As for the par 5's, why not consider the course as a par 70 instead of 72 and not deal with the length? It is never going to be more than 6500 from the back tees anyway.

It just seems to me that whoever really designed North Fulton had a real appreciation of golf architecture and was influenced by some of the ODG's. I can see an Alps-like quality to #12 even though it was getting dark and cold by the time we reached it and I wasn't really thinking about more than keeping my hands warm.

By the way, the greens, although slow and somewhat bumpy have very healthy Champion on the surface-some rolling and cutting would make them excellent.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 07, 2008, 09:20:18 AM »

Where to begin...

Lynn gets it basically right. Chastain has the most distinguished architectural pedigree of any course - private or public - in Atlanta. It is still a fun course with a couple of holes that are really excellent. It gets more than 70,000 rounds a year, which means there is a great demand for public golf in the city. The idea of bulldozing Chastain for a frisbee park and soccer field is a horrible idea. For historical, economic, political and cultural reasons.

A group of us formed the Atlanta Public Golf Conservancy. Our hope is to work with the city for the purpose of enhancing public golf. Chastain is the jewel in the crown. We have had a number of meetings with most all of the interested parties and we are encourgaged by the responses.

Public golf in Atlanta is at a turning point because American Golf appears to be exiting the golf managment business. It is unclear what, if anything, happens if AG is sold. But then one of the purposes of setting up the Conservancy was to represent the interests of public golfers and golf courses as the city deals with that transition. That will include, hopefully, raising outside funds for restorations (Chastain) and remodelings (the other three city courses).

Chastain is a very good golf course. It will never crack any world top 100 list, but it is a delight and loved by - literally - hundreds of thousands that play it year in and year out. It's loss would be a terrible thing. Happily, I believe the City of Atlanta thinks so too.

Bob

« **Reply #23 on:** January 07, 2008, 10:56:51 AM »

Just to make sure we're not spreading rumors, NF hasn't done 80,000 or 70,000 rounds in a long time, unless the new Champions bermuda has really changed things.

« **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2008, 05:38:28 PM »

Quote from: BCrosby on January 07, 2008, 09:20:18 AM

Where to begin...

Lynn gets it basically right. Chastain has the most distinguished architectural pedigree of any course - private or public - in Atlanta. It is still a fun course with a couple of holes that are really excellent. It gets more than 70,000 rounds a year, which means there is a great demand for public golf in the city. The idea of bulldozing Chastain for a frisbee park and soccer field is a horrible idea. For historical, economic, political and cultural reasons.

A group of us formed the Atlanta Public Golf Conservancy. Our hope is to work with the city for the purpose of enhancing public golf. Chastain is the jewel in the crown. We have had a number of meetings with most all of the interested parties and we are encourgaged by the responses.

Public golf in Atlanta is at a turning point because American Golf appears to be exiting the golf managment business. It is unclear what, if anything, happens if AG is sold. But then one of the purposes of setting up the Conservancy was to represent the interests of public golfers and golf courses as the city deals with that transition. That will include, hopefully, raising outside funds for restorations (Chastain) and remodelings (the other three city courses).

Chastain is a very good golf course. It will never crack any world top 100 list, but it is a delight and loved by - literally - hundreds of thousands that play it year in and year out. It's loss would be a terrible thing. Happily, I believe the City of Atlanta thinks so too.

Bob

Bob,

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help with this.

Mike

News:

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