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John Moore II

What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« on: January 02, 2008, 01:31:34 PM »
With all the discussion about why courses need to be long and such, and with the good discussion about finding out really what an 18 handicap wants, why don't we find out what a scratch golfer wants. Really a good question I think, what do good golfers want in a course?

My Preferences:
-Firm, fast fairways
-Hard, Fast greens with large undulations
-Runnoff areas from the greens
-Bunkers that are really penal, bring back furrows
-Fairways that require that I think and force me to hit a good shot every time
-Rough that amounts to a real penalty
-Length DOES NOT MATTER!!! 5500 yds? 7500 yds? just fine either way, as long as....
-Most of all-A COURSE THAT MAKES ME THINK MY WAY AROUND

Now lets see what other good opinions there are...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 01:42:38 PM by Johnny M »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2008, 01:38:42 PM »
Sorry, you're obviously not an average scratch golfer.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Moore II

Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2008, 01:41:09 PM »
George-
Please explain your assesment.


Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 01:41:37 PM »
With all the discussion about why courses need to be long and such, and with the good discussion about finding out really what an 18 handicap wants, why don't we find out what a scratch golfer wants. Really a good question I think, what do good golfers want in a course?

My Preferences:
-Firm, fast fairways
-Hard, Fast greens with large undulations
-Runnoff areas from the greens
-Bunkers that are really penal, bring back furrows
-Fairways that require that I think and force me to hit a good shot every time
-Rough that amounts to a real penalty
-Most of all-A COURSE THAT MAKES ME THINK MY WAY AROUND

Now lets see what other good opinions there are...

I find this list interesting in that the course superintendent and his staff have far more influence on each of these items than the course architect except perhaps for:

-Fairways that require that I think and force me to hit a good shot every time

-Most of all-A COURSE THAT MAKES ME THINK MY WAY AROUND


...unless the faiweays and greens are all completely surrounded by bunkers filled with sand that is too fine to be furrowed.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 01:45:48 PM »
George-
Please explain your assesment.



Your tastes are far too logical. Most scratch golfers, like most other golfers, just want good conditions.

At least, that's what we're told.

 :)

* sorry to Jax for the jokes, I know we're supposed to be serious.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 01:47:07 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 01:51:21 PM »
Shot values.

Not scratch but low single digit.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2008, 02:07:08 PM »
I want a mix of holes, actually. Six, six, and six of easy, moderate, and very difficult.

I want excellent greens that roll true, but that are soft enough to accept a well struck shot.

I want fairway hazards that don't have to be carried in order to leave oneself a reasonable shot at birdie.

I want firm fairways, or at least fairways cut such that I have access to the back of the ball.

Finally, I want variety: Short, long, tight, open, etc.

Peter Nomm

Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2008, 07:27:06 PM »
Good visuals - meaning that I can see what I need to do.

I relish the opportunity to attempt to hit the shot that best suits the situation.  I may not always pull it off, but the ones that are successful are what create the memories.

And at the same time, having a variety of these shots to hit (ie. skip one in, fly it high, knockdown shots, etc. etc.) during a given round is fun.  The day's pin placements have a lot to do with this, so variety is both a component of daily maintenance as it is of design.


Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 08:41:58 PM »
I like most of the list in the first post. However, I don't care for penal rough. I want width with central bunkers that challenge the ideal line. (Pinehurst #2 isn't as good with the narrower fairways.) Firm, fast conditions throughout the course. Greens that roll true - they don't have to be that fast. Lost of variety in the length of holes especially par 3s. Few trees in play. I don't want to lose any balls, but I want something that is challenging. Lost balls and penalty strokes are boring and lame. Interesting green contours that require strategic play are a must.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2008, 08:57:48 PM »
Good visuals - meaning that I can see what I need to do.


Peter,

I don't mean to single you out, but I hear the very thing you have described from many good players and I disagree entirely.

Being able to see what you need to do and having a good visual, ie. framing, is a certain characteristic of design that I think hurts more than helps a lot of courses.

I don't mind a lack of clear visuals on a course.  To me it creates an uneasiness for the better player which I think is a good thing in design.  Now, I wouldn't want every hole with blind shots or even an overabundance, but I like a bit of visual deception from time to time.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008, 09:31:28 PM »
Not scratch but I want variety, quirk, challenging deep bunkers, extreme variety of contour around greens so that I have the chance to be creative with my short game, rough that is manageable and not overly penal, no overhanging trees on the right side of the fairways(because I hit a draw), some forced carries, a course that makes me think and plan my shots, a redan, a barritz, a 2 level and a 3 level green.

I want a scruffy irregular appearance around the bunker edges. Fast greens not overally bumpy so I can make well struck putts.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 09:37:06 PM »
I want a mix of holes, actually. Six, six, and six of easy, moderate, and very difficult.

I want excellent greens that roll true, but that are soft enough to accept a well struck shot.

I want fairway hazards that don't have to be carried in order to leave oneself a reasonable shot at birdie.

I want firm fairways, or at least fairways cut such that I have access to the back of the ball.

Finally, I want variety: Short, long, tight, open, etc.

Hmmm, hard fairways and soft greens.

What about soft fairways and hard greens?  :(

Peter Nomm

Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008, 10:36:53 PM »
J Slonis - keep in mind blind shots are only blind the first time - a good player will learn what to do with it once he knows what is there.

Sand Hills is a good example - it has a lot of approaches in particular where the pin is elevated such that we would consider it blind.  But once you play it, you understand the next time what to do with the shot and how the course offers endless possibilities - probably why it has been among my favorite golf experiences ever.  Even with nearly half of the approaches falling into this category (1,5,6,9?,10,11,12?,13,15,17,18) mentally I can sit here today and visualize what is needed.  So if we want to term it good visuals, or whatever, at least being able to visualize a shot and then trying to execute it is what makes it for me.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2008, 10:48:54 PM »
I want a mix of holes, actually. Six, six, and six of easy, moderate, and very difficult.

I want excellent greens that roll true, but that are soft enough to accept a well struck shot.

I want fairway hazards that don't have to be carried in order to leave oneself a reasonable shot at birdie.

I want firm fairways, or at least fairways cut such that I have access to the back of the ball.

Finally, I want variety: Short, long, tight, open, etc.

Hmmm, hard fairways and soft greens.

What about soft fairways and hard greens?  :(

I'm a low ball hitter. I hate hard greens!! :lol:

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2008, 10:49:34 PM »
Uncertainty!

If the designer can create a situation where the appropriate shot is uncomfortable, then he/she has me.  

I recently played a hole in Florida with long diagonal bunker wall or face that hid a good portion of the landing area.  A safer route was evident to the right.  I was told I could hit it left over the imposing bunker but couldn't bring myself to hit it where I was told.  My ball ended in a spot to the right that left me with a much more difficult second.  

The hole was maybe 365 yards.  But presented me with a series of thoughts and decisions that prevented me from hitting a smooth drive.  That is good design.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2008, 10:52:04 PM »

J Slonis - keep in mind blind shots are only blind the first time - a good player will learn what to do with it once he knows what is there.

That's not true.

A blind hole is blind EVERY time.

I don't know of a single golfer that hits the ball in the exact same spot every time he plays a blind hole, nor do I know of a golf course that keeps the hole location the same, day in and day out.

While you may have a general feel for the nature of the blind hole, it remains blind every time you play it from a new position to a new hole location.

Having played the 16th hole at NGLA a good number of times, the punchbowl nature of the green has saved innumerable miscalculations on my part.
[/color]

Sand Hills is a good example - it has a lot of approaches in particular where the pin is elevated such that we would consider it blind.  


Which holes ?
[/color]

But once you play it, you understand the next time what to do with the shot and how the course offers endless possibilities - probably why it has been among my favorite golf experiences ever.  

Even with nearly half of the approaches falling into this category (1,5,6,9?,10,11,12?,13,15,17,18) mentally I can sit here today and visualize what is needed.  


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your definition of "blind" but, on most of those holes you can see the hole location at some point during the play of the hole, or from a prior hole.
[/color]

So if we want to term it good visuals, or whatever, at least being able to visualize a shot and then trying to execute it is what makes it for me.


Then I take it that you don't like # 17 at Prestwick or # 3 at NGLA ?
[/color]

« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 10:54:13 PM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2008, 11:38:15 PM »
Johnny,

If you are scratch, I think you are a very enlightened scratch, and by NO MEANS are you "average."

Here's what I think the AVERAGE scratch wants:

Really good greens that roll true
7000+ from the tips (And how can we make it longer?)
Fast greens, ("what are they stimping at?")
Greens that hold a well hit shot
Great green complexes including attractive, challenging bunkers
A wide variety of really challenging shots, options, drama
Fairways where the ball sits up well
Long rough
Consistant bunker sand and bunker lies. (No way they want grooves!)
Good tees: flat, even stances
Significant penalties for missing a shot: water, sand, rough
No blind shots (or VERY few)

These are not my preferences, but as a Grounds Chair, I can tell you that this is what almost all the scratch players want at my club.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:07:08 AM by Bill Brightly »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2008, 07:06:35 AM »
George-
Please explain your assesment.



Your tastes are far too logical. Most scratch golfers, like most other golfers, just want good conditions.

At least, that's what we're told.

 :)

* sorry to Jax for the jokes, I know we're supposed to be serious.
I think this sums it up for 90% of golfers.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

MikeJones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2008, 08:19:43 AM »
Not that there's any such thing as an average scratch golfer, but having said that, I would think that they would want a course that rewards their length, accuracy and all round game.

They don't want to be beaten by a guy whacking it all over creation and getting away with it and then sinking a few choice putts to beat them on the last green!

Thus there has to be a reward for what they consider to be their hard earned tee to green skills and harsh punishment for those who fail to live up to those standards.

I'm pretty sure that most dont think that much about the 'in's and out's' of strategy.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2008, 08:38:47 AM »
Mike,
I would argue that the scratch player would have a far superior short game and wouldn't be too concerned about a guy whacking it all over creation and then making putts and beating him.

I know plenty of 5-9 players who drive it great and hit their irons decent and an equal amount of scratch players who hit it all over the map-yet score.

A course with the abilty to scaramble and recover may not favor the better ballstriker, but it favors the better PLAYER who then has the opportunity to beat you on a good day or a bad ballstriking day.
And this is something the 5-9 hdcp good ballstriker continually fails to comprehend (and the reason so many member courses are set up so silly with high rough and narrow fairways)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

MikeJones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2008, 09:14:04 AM »
Jeff, I think this is the problem with trying to imagine an average scratch golfer - there are none, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses.







jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2008, 09:23:59 AM »
Mike,
agreed-no such thing as an "average scratch",anymore than there's no such thing as "the average 18".

Some 18s (seniors,ladies,juniors) play a strength deprived strategic game where they navigate around hazards.

Most male 18's have no need for a strategy other than choice of an easier to hit club-Many full shots are completely random so angles are meaningless,but width helps keep them on the golf course(a centerline bunker is in fact a good target rather than a hazard to be navigated around)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2008, 09:41:31 AM »
Unfortunately, it also seems a large number of good players want "fairness."  If they hit what they believe to be a good shot, they want to be "rewarded" and not have to deal with a bad bounce, etc.

Peter Nomm

Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 10:36:56 AM »

J Slonis - keep in mind blind shots are only blind the first time - a good player will learn what to do with it once he knows what is there.

That's not true.

A blind hole is blind EVERY time.

I don't know of a single golfer that hits the ball in the exact same spot every time he plays a blind hole, nor do I know of a golf course that keeps the hole location the same, day in and day out.

While you may have a general feel for the nature of the blind hole, it remains blind every time you play it from a new position to a new hole location.

Having played the 16th hole at NGLA a good number of times, the punchbowl nature of the green has saved innumerable miscalculations on my part.
[/color]

Sand Hills is a good example - it has a lot of approaches in particular where the pin is elevated such that we would consider it blind.  


Which holes ?
[/color]

But once you play it, you understand the next time what to do with the shot and how the course offers endless possibilities - probably why it has been among my favorite golf experiences ever.  

Even with nearly half of the approaches falling into this category (1,5,6,9?,10,11,12?,13,15,17,18) mentally I can sit here today and visualize what is needed.  


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your definition of "blind" but, on most of those holes you can see the hole location at some point during the play of the hole, or from a prior hole.
[/color]

So if we want to term it good visuals, or whatever, at least being able to visualize a shot and then trying to execute it is what makes it for me.


Then I take it that you don't like # 17 at Prestwick or # 3 at NGLA ?
[/color]


I think the definition of "blind" may be in question, but my interpretation is that I cannot see the majority of the area to which I am intending to hit my shot.  But "blind" and "unknown" are not the same thing to me, meaning that even if I cannot see where I want to land the ball, at least having played a course before I know where I want to go with it - even if hitting from different parts of the course.

A good example from Sand Hills is the very first hole, especially if you lay-up for your third.  Standing in the fairway you cannot see the surface of the green, but realize it does sit in a bit of a bowl with plenty of room to hit it left or to the back of the green.  So while it may not be visible, it allows me to know what I need to do.

I also think one key difference exists between an "average" 18-hcp and an "average" scratch golfer - the average golfer has trouble telling the depth of the pin location, even on his regular course.  Conversely, better (or at least more observant) golfers can usually judge reasonably well the depth of an elevated pin.  Maybe playing golf since I was standing makes it easier for me to judge something like this than it does for other players - so to me "blind" shots don't necessarily mean that I don't have a good mental image of what I need to do.

Prestwick #17 - not having played it, I assume the "alps" interfere with the view of the approach.  I am certain that during the Open Championship each contestant knows exactly what he is trying to do with his shot.  Blind but not unknown.

NGLA?  Sound like #16 is a pretty fun hole - assume it is blind too but at least you know you have some bailout.

So maybe to sum up - my original comment about good visuals should be translated as a hole that has enough character to stand out in my mind so that each time I play it, I recognize the challenges, and in doing so can choose to try a shot that would best negotiate the obstacles ahead.

henrye

Re:What does the average SCRATCH golfer want in a course?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 12:24:13 PM »
Johnny,

If you are scratch, I think you are a very enlightened scratch, and by NO MEANS are you "average."

Here's what I think the AVERAGE scratch wants:

Really good greens that roll true
7000+ from the tips (And how can we make it longer?)
Fast greens, ("what are they stimping at?")
Greens that hold a well hit shot
Great green complexes including attractive, challenging bunkers
A wide variety of really challenging shots, options, drama
Fairways where the ball sits up well
Long rough
Consistant bunker sand and bunker lies. (No way they want grooves!)
Good tees: flat, even stances
Significant penalties for missing a shot: water, sand, rough
No blind shots (or VERY few)

These are not my preferences, but as a Grounds Chair, I can tell you that this is what almost all the scratch players want at my club.



Ditto for the scratch players I know. "Greens that hold a well hit shot" = soft greens.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:26:00 PM by HenryE »