[Bob_Huntley]

Which one would suffer most in the "Great" category sans the ocean.

Black marking pens at the ready.

Bob

The tenth, originally by Raynor in 1925  but I do believe some extras by Hunter and peripherally MacKenzie, post Raynor's demise.


The fourteenth, completely new hole by Rees Jones some seven years ago.



https://www.mpccpb.org/images/wallpaper/images/Dunes%2010.jpg

https://www.mpccpb.org/images/wallpaper/images/Dunes%2014.jpg

[David Stamm]

Bob, is this restricted to Pat and Tom?

[Bob_Huntley]

David,

No it's a free for all, the more the merrier.

Their dialogue went on for several pages with lots of others chiming in.

Bob

[Norbert P]

They would both suffer without the roiling sea.  

I have seen neither from the perspective of addressing a golf ball and don't know the micro-rolls and microstrategies but Jimmy Buffet and the Coral Reefer Band would look great on either green.  

"Some of us sailors call her home.
 She's big and she's strong and she's mighty
 Some of us sailors call her our own.
 I guess that's the reason why . . .
 We treat her like a lady."  JB

[David Stamm]

In that case Bob, I'll offer my humble opinion. I believe the 10th would suffer more. The Pacific is actually in play on the 14th. The 10th no doubt looks like a solid hole however.


 

[Jed Peters]

Bob:

Both holes are beautifully done, even without the backdrop.

Personally (and I've never played the Dunes, even though I'd love to) I would think that the 10th would be a far easier hole? I'd also like to see the area short right of the green mowed down to "feed" balls into the green for poorly struck shots or to bring into play the ground game.

I think that the 10th is a more "natural" hole (if that makes sense) than the 14th (I've stopped and gawked at the hole about 2 dozen times!) does.

The 14th is a more "solid" test of golf requiring a high cut off the tee some 180 plus yards...and I see the 10th as more "accommodating".

Which hole is "greater"? I think that the determination is personal--for me, I think the 10th is a better hole. The 14th is a little too "Rees/Nicklaus" for me with say, a lake instead of the Big Blue.

[Matt_Cohn]

The 14th. It seems obvious to me!

However, if you take away the wind too, then the 10th suffers more.

So maybe it's not so obvious.  

[Tom_Doak]

Bob:  This is a tricky question.  You can black out the ocean on the tenth and you've still got a golf hole with good defenses at the green.  But at the fourteenth, you've got to replace the ocean with something, because it's in play.  If you replace it with grass, then there's not much there; if you replace it with a pond, it's a tougher hole than #10.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I haven't had the benefit of playing either hole, but, first and foremost, the holes have to stand on their individual architectural merit.

If they're absent merit, the ocean isn't going to supply it.
 
The Ocean will only serve to distract and divert the golfer's attention from a poor hole and act as the icing on the cake on a good hole.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[Tim Bert]

In that case Bob, I'll offer my humble opinion. I believe the 10th would suffer more. The Pacific is actually in play on the 14th. The 10th no doubt looks like a solid hole however.
 

I take the opposite view here.  I have not played either, so I'm trusting that they are both in the "great" category based on the original post.  They are both certainly very photogenic, and the ocean doesn't hurt.  

Anyway, assuming they ae both great holes, then removing the ocean hurts most on the hole where it comes into play, right?  Removing it from the other simply changes how it looks, but not how it plays.  Doesn't that mean the 14th has to suffer more?

Even if we are talking pure aeshtetics, at least based on these two photos, the 10th appears to have more to offer visually - the surrounding landscape is stunning.

[David Stamm]

I need to clarify my observation. My take is 14th would suffer more. When I typed my first response I transposed hole numbers. Sorry.

[Jim Nugent]

Strictly based on the pictures, 14 suffers more.  Looks like it depends more on the ocean.  

[James Bennett]

I think #10 is a great hole with less influence from the sea, although the wind is an important element.

Other views of #10 at the Dunes (MPCC)





and of 14



and looking back to the tee from #14 green



James B

[Matt_Cohn]

Mackenzie and Hunter?

[James Bennett]

Matt

see Bob's first post - he also refers to Hunter and Mackenzie's involvement at The Dunes (post Raynor's death).  I have read about this, but can't recall whether it is in the Doak book on Mackenzie, or The Spirit of St Andrews, or on GCA.

James B

PS  Does anyone have a picture of these holes during one of those heavy sea mists/low fog days?  That should save Mucci/Huckaby having to use Paint to black-ink the sea out of the image.  

[Bob_Huntley]

James,

I do, but will have to scrape to find them.

Bob

[Kyle Henderson]

PS  Does anyone have a picture of these holes during one of those heavy sea mists/low fog days?  That should save Mucci/Huckaby having to use Paint to black-ink the sea out of the image.  

Without the heavy ocean, there would be no sea mists...

Maybe someone should photoshop the two holes in question such that they appear to be in the desert of Scottsdale.

[David Stamm]

PS  Does anyone have a picture of these holes during one of those heavy sea mists/low fog days?  That should save Mucci/Huckaby having to use Paint to black-ink the sea out of the image.  

 
Maybe someone should photoshop the two holes in question such that they appear to be in the desert of Scottsdale.

Already we are missing TN's talents.....

[Scott Stambaugh]

Visually, they suffer equally without the ocean.  Playability- the 14th suffers more for obvious reasons.  But, only from the back tee.  From the mens regular set of tees, #14 (with or without the ocean) is an average hole.  Since the back tee was added, this hole is rarely photographed in a manner that shows the other sets of tees.  

Now say the ocean stays but the wind is no longer a factor, then #10 loses its greatness.  In a strong wind (which rarely comes at you due west,) #10 is a very difficult hole.  #14 with or without wind is an easy bogey, in my opinion.

SS

[Michael Whitaker]

Here you go...

[Bob_Huntley]

Here you go...

Michael,

That is quite brilliant. How on earth do you do it?


Bob

[Michael Whitaker]

Here is another version of #10...

[Michael Whitaker]

How on earth do you do it?

Bob

Bob - It's not all that hard if you have the right software. You just clip out the pieces you want to keep and layer in a new background. I did all three photos in about 15 minutes... including searching out the photos for the backgrounds.

By the way... the background for #14 is the 10th hole at Cuscowilla!

[James Bennett]

Michael

that other version of #10 is very believable.  Where is it?

James B

[Matt_Cohn]

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