[Andy Troeger]

Thought I would post a few photos of a course I played over the weekend for your viewing pleasure. I'm guessing these will generate some discussion, I know they did in our own group. Once things get going I will post the name of the course and my own thoughts but I wanted to start with this one hole first. If someone wants to give it away you won't be stealing my thunder, I just wanted to base it on the photos first for a bit.

The photos are of a par four. The course has six sets of tees, measuring 377/361/349/327/307/286. One thing that may not be evident is that it appears part of the strategy of the hole was to have a split fairway. From where we played (349), it was a 300 yard carry to go straight at the green over the bunkers, so it was pretty much a no brainer to hit the ball left and take your chances from over there. Shockingly, I hit the ball into a bunker.

The first photo is as wide of an angle as I could take with my point and shoot camera. The second shows the angle toward the green from the tee, and the third is from the right side of the fairway about 80 yards out showing the bunkers a bit more up close. It may not be evident from the photos, but there is a fair amount of room over the bunkers short of the green on the right side. The bunkers in the third photo do have fairway on both sides of them.







Thoughts? Do you like the hole?

[Trey Kemp]

I think I know the course, but I will let others guess.  I am pretty sure they are going to play a PGA tour event there next year and if I am not mistaken it has a slope of 155.  Looks tough, but also looks fun.  I would hate to be the guys on the maintenance staff who have to rake all of those bunkers!

[Bob Jenkins]

I have no idea where this place may be but the bunkering is too much! Talk about overkill!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like good bunkering.  I can even tolerate a little too many bunkers, but I like grass even more.  Where the heck do you hit it?  

[Kevin_Reilly]

The course has 140 bunkers, but I wonder how they count some of them...those are big bunker areas (at least in the case of this hole).

[Chris Cupit]

Ugh.  I vote no.  Pointy "mounding" (is that an oxymoron or what?!) may be more offensive to me than the bunker shaping.

[ed_getka]

I don't like the bunker mounding, it is making me seasick. Andy, what is the carry to dry land on the direct route? Is there a run up ramp up into the green if one is so inclined? What is going on once you are on the green?

[Matt_Cohn]

Yeah, it's ridiculous and not the direction things should be headed in, but I bet I'd have a blast playing it...

[Tony_Muldoon]

My first thought was why design a hole where you have to carry water and sand?    But as an occasional thing it might work.

When choosing where to hit you've now got two things to worry about.  You know getting wet will cost you stroke and distance but what is landing in a bunker going to cost?  So you have to factor a lot of unknowns and graduated penalties into your choice.


It could get to be very boring if it became a template but once in a while it might be ok.   (Still looks like overkill).

[Kevin Pallier]

My kids would like all that sand and water on that particular hole -  I dont. Interesting that they use a bulldozer to make all those mounds yet - build what appears a pretty flat green !?!

Any other pics to garner a view of other holes ?

[Mark Pearce]

The bunkering down the RHS of the fairway looks entirely redundant.  I assune you hit it in a bunker left of the fairway or went too straight?

Get rid of that long RHSfairway bunker (and the attached mounding), leave a deep centreline pot bunker between the landing area and the green (about where the furthest extension of the existing long bunker is) and it would be a fun hole.  As it is it's too busy visually.

[Mike_Cirba]

It looks very, very similar to Ron Fream and David Dale's ShoreGate in southern NJ.

I had a similar reaction there, as well.

[Anthony_Nysse]

How does Watson do Cassique at Kiawah Island and then do this? I felt that Cassique was a pretty good offering....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Andy Troeger]

I don't like the bunker mounding, it is making me seasick. Andy, what is the carry to dry land on the direct route? Is there a run up ramp up into the green if one is so inclined? What is going on once you are on the green?

The carry to dry land on the direct route I think from the 350 tees we played would have to be 280. Its not really feasible to me unless you're ridiculously long seeing as the course is in Florida a couple miles from the Ocean

The green has three tiers with the lowest being the front right side and angling toward the back left. The green is massive although I did not get a good shot of it.

As some of you who have recognized the photo or knew where I was playing have said, its a Watson course with a slope rating of 155 from the tips (7800 yards) called the Conservatory at Hammock Beach. Its the new course at the resort with the old one being Ocean Hammock. We played at 6700 yards and it was still a 142 slope. The course has a LOT of bunkers but this hole probably covers more ground than any other than maybe the par five 10th. Most of that is all one or two bunkers!

I would say the ideal line is just to the right of the cart in the center of the fairway. I pulled my drive a little bit left of that and ended up in the little bunker to the left, which was very deep and not a good spot. I do have a couple other photos from the course of holes that I liked better so will add those later today as time permits along with some more thoughts.

[Jeff Spittel]

If I'm understanding correctly, all you have to do is be able to drive the ball like Tom Watson and the course is pretty straightforward.

Great, sign me up.

[jeffwarne]

Job secuity for the entire Guatamalan nation

If less is more.... is more less?

I'm sure it looks much better from the ground though


Anthony,
I played Cassique last month and really enjoyed it.
My host was aghast that I liked it more than the River course . (which didn't seem any better or different than a dozen or so courses near or on Hilton Head)

[Jason Connor]

Visually I'm not a fan, either of the sand/water redundancy or the points.

But I also think water is way over used.  So depending upon the line of play for some (is there a tee that goes straight down the fairway?), I appreciate that the sand can keep some balls from the water.

I like the fact that a duffer has a chance at recovery.

[Andy Troeger]

More photos from the Conservatory. I'm listing the yardages from the tips, 6700 yard tees, and forward tees.

#1, par four, 444/391/331. The opener is pretty straightforward and shows that there will be sand to contend with at the Conservatory!


#3, par three, 202/157/103. Good par three with left obviously being trouble.


#7, par four, 440/391/353. My favorite hole on the course. The tee shot goes through a treegate/goalpost of two trees similar in size to the one in the photo leaving this approach to the green. Yes, that is a waterfall back behind the green...


#8, par three, 199/145/70. Not evident from the photo but this is an island green. The green and surrounding area is huge though and the water only really seems to be in play short and left. Tough pin for our round.


#18, par five, 602/534/440. Photo taken from the approach area for a third shot.

[John Kavanaugh]

It seems clear to me that Watson simply replicates the landforms he loved in Britain while replacing heather and gorse with sand.  It is the best of both worlds given that sand is easier and more exciting than either of the aforementioned.  

[Andy Troeger]

I think given the site that having water features was pretty unavoidable in order to raise the level of the fairways/greens/etc. I'm guessing a little bit, but it certainly appeared that it could have been very swamp-like ground before the course was built. For the most part, the ponds are out of the way (as on the 3rd and 15th where it takes a daring and/or poorly executed shot to end up in the water). I didn't play particularly well and I think only lost two balls both of which were really poor efforts on my part. It is in play on some holes for sure including #8 and #18.

Off to work, will check in tonight!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff,
  You are very right in your thinking of The River Club. I think the The River Club opend in 1995, right around the time both Belfair courses opened and Berkeley Hall followed. The recent renovations are nice, though. How did you like that fairways grass? It's usually used on greens.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[David Stamm]

I think I can see Alberto Tomba on one of the mounds in the photo....

[PCCraig]

I have played Watson's Course at Kiawah and loved it. I thought the idea of playing #4-#6 differently every other day really neat. There is usually a lot of talk on here about building a great and interesting course on a flat piece of land....that is a good example.

Pat

[Garland Bayley]

Do tour pros like Watson and Norman put a lot of sand on courses, because a) they know how to miss it better than we do, and b) when they do get in it, they know they are way better then us anyway?

Plow the thing under and try again!

[Kyle Henderson]

Maintenance nightmare.

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