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Phil_the_Author

What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« on: December 09, 2007, 09:06:24 AM »
Interesting little blurb published in the June 1938 issue of Golf Illustrated. In his column the reviewing stand, in the section titled "More of St. Andrews" he wrote:

"Recent dispatches from Scotland bring us the news that still another course is to be built over the rolling links, wher golf was played one hundred and eighty-four years ago... It is stated that the new lay-out will be known as the Modern Course and it is intimated that it will be patterned after the American type, so distinctly different in many respects from the old British traditional modeling. This is not particularly surprising as the golf course architects of Great britain have been leaning more and more to absorbing our ideas. However, it is significant that ancient St. Andrews is feeling the influence, for there, few departures from traditional lines have been countenanced. As a matter of fact many have regarded any such suggestion as heresy. Some have maintained tenaciously, that the Old Course at St. Andrews... is the holy of holies so far as great courses are to be compared. But gradually the constant drippings of opinion, from critical golfers generally, have worn the stone of the ancients. The modern game has made it most necessary for the courses to keep pace with changing conditions."

Never having heard of this potential course, does anyone have any information about it?

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 09:40:13 AM »
Philip

A few years ago a plan by Colt, Alison and Morrison for a golf course at St Andrews was sold at auction.  But I don't know any more details.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2007, 09:43:22 AM »
Tom MacWood has written on the proposal for the Modern course at St. Andrews in the past. I'm pretty sure he has quite a bit of info. on this subject.

Too bad MacWood doesn't post here anymore.
jeffmingay.com

Rich Goodale

Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2007, 03:02:28 PM »
Paul

Colt, Allison and Morrison were asked to make an assessment of ways to improve/strengthen the New Course in 1938.  They concluded that nothing could be done unless extra land were found to improve holes 14-18.  As the only such land would have to come from the Old Course, nothing was done.  Those are probably the plans you are talking about.

Philip anb Jeff

Almost concurrently, Campbell, CM Hutchinson and Sandeman proposed a "Super" Course to replace the Old Course as a Championship venue, utilising the best land of the New and Jubilee courses.  This was what Tom MacWood was talking about a few years ago.  This proposal was never seriously considered, partly because of WWII, but also because it was a goofy idea.

Rich

Neil_Crafter

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Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2007, 04:10:21 PM »
Philip
Tom MacWood wrote a great profile for our Golf Architecture magazine Issue 9 on the Three Majors, Hutchison, Campbell and Hotchkin. In the process he gave me a heads up on the proposal by Sir Nairne Sandeman with Guy Campbell and CK Hutchison for the "Modern Course' at St Andrews. Bernard Darwin wrote about in Country Life on Feb 12 1938 and I've attached the article below in the various pieces, including the plan. Hope you find it of interest.
cheers Neil





Neil_Crafter

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Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 04:12:09 PM »
Sorry, the plan didn't come up as it should have.

RSLivingston_III

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Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 05:50:01 PM »
That plan looks like it is drawn on the land used for the Jubilee. Was the original Jubilee the "modern" style course they are talking about?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 07:46:08 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 09:49:20 PM »
This is undoubtedly one of the most interesting stories throughout the history of golf architecture.

Thanks to Tom MacWood and Neil Crafter for bringing it to light here, again.
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2007, 07:32:50 AM »
They were doing some work to the Jubilee course when I was back in St. Andrews in 1985.  I believe that they did incorporate some of the ground shown in this plan, however the work was not nearly as extensive as in this plan.  But, I had never heard of this Modern plan, so I wasn't paying attention whether any of the holes they used were the same.

I do like Darwin's quote about The Old Course!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 07:34:21 AM by Tom_Doak »

Bill_McBride

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Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2007, 09:07:15 AM »
That plan looks like it is drawn on the land used for the Jubilee. Was the original Jubilee the "modern" style course they are talking about?

Actually, the triangle of holes closest to the Eden is the site of the New Course's 8th, 9th and 10th holes, which were built before the Jubilee by what, 20 years?

If the plan was to take the best of the New and Jubilee, then those are indeed among the best holes of the New, IMO at least.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 09:11:08 AM by Bill_McBride »

Phil_the_Author

Re:What WW II cost St. Andrews...
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2007, 09:12:25 AM »
Does anyone know in what way the course would have been "patterned after the American type, so distinctly different in many respects from the old British traditional modeling..."

Wouldn't this concept of architecture, especially with its proximity to the Old Course, have been extremely controversial?