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Chris Kane

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Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« on: December 08, 2007, 05:03:58 PM »
This was in the Sunday Age this morning:

Ogilvy revisits the '30s and uses a hickory shaft to iron out a myth
Mike Clayton
December 9, 2007

GOLFERS in Melbourne are in danger of taking Royal Melbourne for granted. Here is one of the world's great golf courses right in the suburbs. Playing there more than 30 years after I first struck a ball off its first tee is still a thrill.

I have heard endless stories in the past few months from members and visitors about how the course is suffering in the drought and it's true that the fairways are not in great condition, but when Geoff Ogilvy, Scottish golf writer John Huggan and I played there on Friday it was about as much fun as you can have on a golf course.

This is not, however, a column about the condition of Royal Melbourne but rather how it plays when you give one of the best players in the game a couple of clubs that were made before Bobby Jones won the grand slam in 1930.

Jones was the last of the great players who used shafts crafted from the hickory tree.

Ogilvy and I had played Royal Melbourne a few years ago with wooden drivers but this time we went out with a circa 1925 hickory shafted two wood and a "driving iron" that had about the loft of a two iron.

The wood has a beautifully shaped head and a very firm shaft and that is the trick for anyone wanting to play around with hickory. The shaft has always been the most important part of any club, modern or ancient, and arguably they were even more important in an age when it was impossible to mass produce quality and consistency.

Jones had always struggled with his eight iron and years after he died they invented a machine that could match shafts perfectly. They tested Jones' clubs and, sure enough, the eight iron was the only mismatched shaft in his set.

RM has been accused of being obsolete and if the best players are the measure then it's true that the four par fives on the West Course are very short and are easily reached with middle-iron second shots. Great design is still great design and Melbourne's designer, Alister MacKenzie, was railing about how far the ball was going in 1930. He would be horrified at what has happened since and anyone reading either of his two great books (Golf Architecture and The Spirit of St Andrews) would understand the contempt he had for those who failed to understand the spirit of the game.

Anyway, Friday was an interesting exercise. We took our modern drivers with heads the size of frying pan heads off the first but the hickory club came out on the second tee.

Ogilvy had never hit a wooden shaft but he had a couple of hits and concluded that "my body will tell me how to hit it".

It took him no time to adjust to the feel of the shaft and after a few holes he said "you just don't even want to pull your normal driver out when you can play like this".

Manufacturers have made fortunes mass-producing quality metal drivers and they have unquestionably made the game easier for the average player. Mishits are more than kindly treated by the big heads but off-centre hits with a small-headed wood with a hickory shaft are not pretty.

Ogilvy barely missed the middle of the two wood's clubface and anyone watching would have been astounded how far he drove the ball. Into the strong south wind off the eighth tee he covered 230 metres and down wind off the next he was right at the 270-metre mark. At the long par-four 11th he lost one high and right on the wind and had to hit a three-wood from there but that was about the only bad one he hit. At the par-five 12th and 15th he easily reached the greens with seven-iron second shots and at the final hole ripped the hickory over the corner of the dogleg and hit a wedge onto the green.

There was nothing revolutionary about our conclusions as we walked off the 18th. That RM played so short for a great player using a hickory shaft backed up what MacKenzie said all those years ago. The custodians of the game need to control the ball because RM, like most of our wonderful suburban courses, has no more land.

Marty Bonnar

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2007, 06:26:49 PM »
Mike C,
during your RM round, did you have an opportunity to discuss this website with John Huggan? I'd bet he's a lurker... ;)
I think he would make a damn fine contributor here. Sorry, John but it would necessarily be a non-paying gig. Art is sometimes painful. Please give the idea some consideration.

best,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mike_Clayton

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2007, 07:30:51 PM »
Martin,

Huggan is a long time lurker here - not sure about the contribution bit though!

The amazing think about Geoff is how quickly he adapted to the club and just how impressive the shots were - big high draws that were beautifully flighted in the wind.
That takes a lot of talent - but the modern ball clearly flies amazing distances no matter what you hit it with.
I think we all concluded he was losing about 20 yards - but obviously its much harder to hit and misses are a lot shorter than a miss with a modern driver.
Certainly using there clubs would differentiate between players who can flush it and those who cannot - and modern drivers do not do that to anywhere near the same extent.

John Kirk

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2007, 09:17:52 PM »
I nominate Geoff Oglivy for GolfClubAtlas's first Golfer Of The Year award.  He never ceases to impress.

David Stamm

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2007, 11:05:07 PM »
The more and more I learn about this man the more and more I like him.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David_Elvins

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 12:47:22 AM »
Mike,

How did you go with the older clubs?  How did Geoff go with the driving iron?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 12:59:44 AM »
I love that Geoff Ogilvy is on the tour as I always have someone to root for vigorously.  

Mike_Clayton

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 01:12:02 AM »
Dave,

I should have written more about that club.He hit it beautifully - the best shot was a high draw that just caught the left bunker at 16 - the 220 yard par 3 and you know how difficult that hole is.
Huggan went next and broke the shaft!!
I hit a few decent ones but there was barely a sweet spot on the thing.


 

James Bennett

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 01:31:42 AM »

I hit a few decent ones but there was barely a sweet spot on the thing.


Mike

I've got a matching set of Ping's that seem to fit that description. :o

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mike_Clayton

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2007, 02:23:06 AM »
James,

Pings are all sweep spot compared with a 1915 blade!
Any clown can hit a Ping.

Chris Kane

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2007, 02:27:04 AM »
If they don't have sweet spots Mike, you can sell them on eBay!

Mark_F

Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2007, 02:33:14 AM »
These kinds of stories are old hat.

Two years ago, Lawrence Donegan wrote a story for the Guardian in which Gary Orr played Loch Lomond with a ball produced to mid-1980s specifications, and came off second best.

And didn't Ogilvy - and Misters Clayton and Huggan - play RM last year with a persimmon driver and old butter knife 1-iron, and come to the same conclusion?

Players aren't about to get less fit and flexible, coaches aren't about to throw away the video camera and slow-mo software, and the ball isn't going backwards, either.

It's no use pining for what may be.

Danny Goss

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2007, 03:13:05 AM »
Sorry to disagree Mark but you seem like a bitter old man. Mike's article this morning was both informative and entertaining.
I like the fact that Geoff comes home and is prepared to test his skills using the hickory shafts.
We all know the ball is the problem and Mike is just adding to the argument.
You just seem to want to take argument with almost everything these days. All you seem to be saying is that you already know all about these issues and you are bored by it all. Well good on you - I enjoyed the article, learned a bit from it and am not at all bored by it.

Mike_Clayton

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2007, 03:44:31 AM »
Mark,

It is true these stories are old hat - to those few on sites like this who come across them but how many  Sunday Age readers have heard of Gary Orr or Loch Lomond?

The real story was how little the club has to do with how far the ball goes when it is in the hands of one of the best players in the world - and how talented Ogilvy is.
This year Brandt Snedeker went out with blades and persimmon and concluded Nicklaus and Trevino were genius for being able to hit them because he really struggled.

That was not the conclusion of Friday - which was that talented players can hit anthing.
It was not that surprising what he did with persimmon a couple of years ago but I wonder whether any player has hit such impressive drives with hickory - and its all the ball.
Jones and his mates could clearly have done the same given the modern ball.

Nor is it really about what might be -  its about the fun of trying something different - and for the three of us its hard to imagine having as much fun with the sterile,characterless equipment of today. It was the creativily the game demanded that I miss - and the reality the course is not what it used to be for the best players.

Mark_F

Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2007, 03:50:47 AM »
Stick to the number crunching, Danny, your English comprehension skills are second rate.

If you can extract me being a bitter old man from those few sentences, you would be able to find a satanic message on a Campbell's Soup Can.

I enjoy Mike's writing and wish there was more of it. The Sunday Age would be a much better read if both he and Richard Hinds contributed a golf column each week.

These kind of articles have been around for a few years, and nothing has changed. If "we all know the ball is the problem", is true, then there can't be any adding to the argument, because the result is always the same.

Playing a casual round at RM with old equipment is easy - if Ogilvy really thought the game would be better with old equipment, make a stand and pull it out of his bag when it really counts - in a proper tournament.

After all, he still averages 250 metres with it, and can reach par fives in two with a 7-iron.


Mark_F

Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2007, 04:14:46 AM »
It is true these stories are old hat - to those few on sites like this who come across them but how many Sunday Age readers have heard of Gary Orr or Loch Lomond?

About the same as the number of Guardian readers who have heard of Mike Clayton and Royal Melbourne?  :D


That was not the conclusion of Friday - which was that talented players can hit anthing.

So if equipment was wound back, the same players would still dominate the game?


It was the creativily the game demanded that I miss - and the reality the course is not what it used to be for the best players.

The top players would presumably possess this creativity - but would the respective tours go back and play on the classic old courses that demanded such skills?

I wish it would be so.  I might even get Foxtel again, if that was the case.

PS.  I did enjoy the article, despite Danny's limp-wristed attempt to portray me as a Clayton-hating Grumpy Old Man.

Chris Kane

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2007, 04:33:26 AM »
Playing a casual round at RM with old equipment is easy - if Ogilvy really thought the game would be better with old equipment, make a stand and pull it out of his bag when it really counts - in a proper tournament.

After all, he still averages 250 metres with it, and can reach par fives in two with a 7-iron.

A truly moronic statement.  The game may be "better" with the old equipment, but I don't think Ogilvy has ever suggested the game is easier with hickories, persimmon or balata.  


G Jones

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2007, 07:00:18 AM »
I agree completely with the comment that the ball is the thing that needs to be controlled. I was at East Lake in Atlanta this year the weekend after the Tour Championship, and after a drinks reception we had a putting competition on the 18th green, and myself and a friend ran back to the championship tee with a hickory 2 iron to try to recreate Bobby Jones' tee shot in his lowest ever round at East Lake. He had shot 63, hitting this same loft of iron just off the right side of the green before getting up and down for a par. He then went on to win his first major the next year. Both myself (only 5ft8) and my friend hit a pro-v and despite not totally catching it perfectly my ball landed 5ft off the front of the green on the upslope and stopped dead, and my friend hit it pin high. My second attempt finished pin high to the left.

This was 235yards with no wind. I hit my modern 1 iron the same distance if I'm lucky!
Even when hitting a hickory driver, if I catch it properly it only goes 10-15 yards less than my modern driver.

The thing about hickory is that you can still play most courses off the mens tees with them, but only if you make perfect contact. If you mishit it slightly the consequences can be disasterous! This is what makes the game "better". For too many good club golfers the art of making a good contact has gone with modern clubs. Most will struggle to remember the last time they really mishit a shot in terms of contact. Even Bobby Jones mishit the odd shot very badly.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 07:02:51 AM by G Jones »

Tom_Doak

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2007, 10:16:38 AM »
Chris:

You are right that no player would have the guts to play the hickories against modern equipment straight-up, but you've also given me a great idea for a televised match.

Front nine:  Ogilvy with hickories vs. Clayton with modern equipment.

Back nine:  Clayton with hickories vs. Ogilvy with modern equipment.

That way you'd get to see the contrast between the two on every hole, and the player who managed to hang in there best with the hickories would win.  And I think both players would relish the possibility of winning a hole or two when it was their turn to play the hickories.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 10:17:38 AM by Tom_Doak »

paul cowley

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2007, 10:57:33 AM »
Chris:

You are right that no player would have the guts to play the hickories against modern equipment straight-up, but you've also given me a great idea for a televised match.

Front nine:  Ogilvy with hickories vs. Clayton with modern equipment.

Back nine:  Clayton with hickories vs. Ogilvy with modern equipment.

That way you'd get to see the contrast between the two on every hole, and the player who managed to hang in there best with the hickories would win.  And I think both players would relish the possibility of winning a hole or two when it was their turn to play the hickories.


....and maybe have the match recorded for TV at either Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal....or Merion maybe....or Shinnecock.
Somewheres where I might come to watch.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Alfie

Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2007, 01:25:32 PM »
Mike,

Keep up the good work. I don't know of any better way of getting the message over that all is not well in the world of golf (distance) than by using the best players to dial themselves back in golfing time and reveal some interesting comparisons for the average golfer to digest. Nobody has been listening to the various pleas for action for 100 years now. Doesn't mean to say that sense wont prevail in the end, so long as some keep nagging away in defence of the sport ?


Alfie.

Norbert P

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2007, 02:53:19 PM »
Mike Clayton
December 9, 2007

That RM played so short for a great player using a hickory shaft backed up what MacKenzie said all those years ago.

The custodians of the game need to control the ball because RM, like most of our wonderful suburban courses, has no more land.

  Nice article and a type that SHOULD be brought up from time to time. (Even if only to bring the suave and articulate Alfie into the mix.)

  I often wonder why there is such a big resistance to bridaling the ball distances.  I think it'd be quite interesting if a tournament, at any level, would be played with the ball that was used when the course was originally designed, and at such a revered course like Royal Melboourne.  What are the powers that be afraid of? Ball manufacturers? Advertising agencies? Critical (and/or insecure) players?  
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Neil_Crafter

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2007, 03:48:06 PM »
James
I laughed when I read that Clayton said that any old clown could hit Pings - but you are not just any old clown! ;)

Mike
I played in May at Greg Ramsay's Ratho in the Aust Hickory Championships that he organised. Greg imported a carton of new reproduction gutties from the UK and everyone had to play with them, as well as hickories of course. Now that is a step back into another world. Hitting into the wind is a new experience in pain as these balls fly like shot birds. Downwind not so bad I could get it out to around 200m off the tee. Into the wind lucky to get 160m. Suggest you ask Greg for a few of these and next time you venture onto RM play one of these for a few holes and see how you fare. Could be a nice follow up piece.
cheers Neil

James Bennett

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Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2007, 10:15:18 PM »
Neil

I laughed to.

Mike said 'any clown can hit a Ping'.  Lately, I am very glad I didn't join the circus as my golf shows that I am obviously not a clown.

I do recall the hickory nibklick shot at Meadow Club (c/- Tully) and the hickory mashie shot at Musselburgh (c/- Alfie).  They both had more of a sweet spot than my current form with Pings.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mark_F

Re:Ogilvy using hickories at RMGC
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2007, 03:38:08 AM »
A truly moronic statement.  The game may be "better" with the old equipment, but I don't think Ogilvy has ever suggested the game is easier with hickories, persimmon or balata.  

Read what I wrote again, very carefully this time. Work with a letter at a time if you have to. Then attempt to think before you write.  Did I suggest that Ogilvy has suggested the game would be easier with old equipment?  

Not even close.  Pathetic.

Ogilvy has made known his feelings on modern equipment - and as a US Open champion his views carry some weight - and his lament for what it is doing to old courses.  There have been two stories in Melbourne newspapers the last couple of years about how much fun he had around Royal Melbourne with old equipment.

We've had Nicklaus and Player ad nauseum calling for the ball to be rolled back, and God knows how many older players saying they hit it further now than they did in their prime.  Clearly Gary Orr's adventures at Loch Lomond have had little impact with the rulemakers, either.

If Ogilvy truly believed the game might be more fun, be 'better', be played again on great courses that haven't been distorted, then he should put his money where his mouth his and play with old equipment when it matters.

Maybe he might start something.  




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