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Dean Stokes

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Comparing golf courses?
« on: December 08, 2007, 11:02:56 AM »
Why do we constantly try compare golf courses and try to decide which is better/ best? How can you compare a Maidstone to a Friar's Head or Semiole to The Bears Club. I hear these questions asked all the time and find it ridiculous. How can you compare  two courses built decades apart by different architects using different machinery and methods. Impossible and a waste of time imho. It's like comparing an apple to an orange - they are different, taste different and one person will like one more than the other.  Most golfers I play with tend to rank golf courses by the way they played that day. If they play well they like it. Badly and it was unfair or the greens were not good!!! Let us all judge courses on their individual merit and not worry about whether one is better than another. Anyone?
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RJ_Daley

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2007, 11:17:28 AM »
Dean, you are up to 3 posts as a GCA newbie, and it seems you've struck the essence of many of the GCA.com's ongoing discussion.  In some 8 years of umpteenine thousand posts, we are at a point that your post topic has just about been exhausted in viewpoints expressed, and yet nowhere near a consensus on what is a better way.  

For my own part, I enjoy a narrative explanation of why a particular course you've played is superior, worth an effort to play, and what the merits are in specific descriptions.  Or, why one shouldn't waste one's time because the course is a dog.  But, tell us why from a design, strategy, construction or conditions stand point, not according to if you did well there.  Saying it is a Doak 7 is in my opinion not all that helpful.

Happy posting, and welcome.
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Matt_Ward

Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2007, 11:39:10 AM »
Dean:

Welcome aboard !

In regards to your thoughts -- try to realize that comparisons and contrasts are part and parcel of so many things in golf - as well in life.

No doubt you are likely right -- people often rate courses based on their own success there. I don't find that to be the case in the overwhelming number of cases here on GCA -- although there are clear preferences, biases, call it what one will.

I believe cross comparison of courses is helpful provided as RJ indicated there is some real inclination to delve deeper than just throwing forward a meaningless rating number that far too often does nothing more than apply surface level analysis.

No doubt all courses are different but getting details about what makes them unique when held against others is often quite informative if the presenter makes a case that can withstand comments from others.
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John Kirk

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2007, 11:48:04 AM »
In my case, Dean, I am a compulsive evaluator, and deeply enjoy the process of deciding whether one is better than the other.  I use a simple emotional criteria when looking at golf courses, others use a more structured method.

It's only natural.  I see two women, and I think one looks best.  As I get older, my score becomes less important (and a bit lower I might add), and I judge my day on how much fun I had hitting shots, and how beautiful the walk was.  But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and golf courses that yield great shots look beautiful.
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2007, 11:58:22 AM »
Dean, welcome.  Too bad your first posts opens up a can of worms.
Every magazine ranks something.  How do your compare Italian food to Chinese?  The Emmy's are are coming. How can anyone compare Country to real music?  
I think comparing golf course is a whole easier.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Dean Stokes

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2007, 12:34:32 PM »
Gents, I did not try to open any cans of worms. I also fully understand that as humans we do compare and rank almost everything.  I guess my point is that trying to compare a course built today on 400 acres with unlimited budget and a course built 100 years ago on 150 acres with a lower budget is rather fruitless. They can both be great but completely different and I think to try compare them is almost impossible.
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2007, 12:49:31 PM »
Dean, I know for me I ask a couple of questions about the merits of a course.
Do I want to come back and play it again?
Did it test my game? And if so how?
Were the greens interesting and varied?
Were the bunkers and hazards placed in such a way as to give the player different options?  For instance if you hug a hazard is it worth the risk?  Does it make a difference to the shot into the green?
Does the routing make the best use of the land?  Do the holes go in different directions wo that on a windy day you are obliged to play wind that is behind, into, left to right, right to left and quartering?
Was it esthetically pleasing?
I think then, that it is possible to compare courses from differing areas and style.
Just a few thoughts.  
Maybe there are only a few worms out of the can.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 12:50:08 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Dean Stokes

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2007, 01:21:02 PM »
Tommy. With thoughts and questions like yours then I am positive that comparisons can be made. However not everyone thiks that way when they stand on a golf course! I think quite often in comparisons the answers to your questions are overlooked.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2007, 01:33:49 PM »
I think it is entirely valid to compare courses - and on whatever terms you choose.

I'll give you a parallel. With my musical hat on I have adjudicted in competitions where pianists are up against string quartets, cellists against trombonists and a lutenist against a saxophone ensemble. Your first reaction would be, 'How can you compare a lutenist with a saxophone ensemble?'  Run a chamber concert subscription series and you soon learn to compare such disparate things.

It's the same in golf. You book a 10-day golfing tour to another country. You will pick certain types of courses over others for a variety of reasons. Your selection will be different from Tommy's or mine, because you will have different criteria. As mentioned in another post. I love Royal St David's and Aberdovey. Others are disappointed, while yet others loathe the places.  There are those who would prefer a round at The Belfry or Celtic Manor to one at Beau Desert or Pennard - but they tend to keep very quiet on this site.

I think that as long as we state why we like or dislike something and why we prefer one course to another our judgements should be respected by others on this site. By all means let them disagree - and state why - but respect the other person's judgement even if you cannot agree.
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jeffwarne

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2007, 01:36:16 PM »
Dean.
I think we CAN compare courses on 400 acres with big budgets to those built on 150 acres with minimal budgets.
and 9 times out of 10 the older, smaller budget one is better!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only very lately have the big budget projects gotten it right with great land , cooperative and visionary owners, and brilliant architecture.
(Bandon Dunes 3-4 courses,Friar's Head, Sebonack etc.)
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2007, 01:46:27 PM »
As Ran said, we compare golf courses all the time.

When planning a trip, we listen to other's opinions, evaluate pictures, then play and form our own opinions which we pass on.

Go to Frank Pont's architecture section on Wales that Ran highlights on the Wales thread.
If you were planning a trip and were going to play 5 courses based on COMPARING those pictures, you wouldn't likely pick the one that looks more like south Florida and designed by a son of a famous south Floridian.
But you might, and that's what makes the world go around ;)but the point is you'd do it by COMPARING courses.
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt_Ward

Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2007, 02:35:29 PM »
Dean:

Let me just add this -- it's importantcategorize against particular categories if possible. Digest has done that to some degree in its assessment of "best new" when they categorize public courses above / below a certain green fee amount. That way you avoid the apples v oranges argument you originally mentioned.

Those who generally post here try to delve beyond the surface level stuff. I've made it a point to not just "assume" (as some do) that any course coming from architect "X" is always a home run or strike out given simply because of the name of the person.

The key for me is to have some sort of consistent formula that is applied and itemized through one's description. Clearly, the need for detailed writing helps immensely and avoids the surface level stuff that far too often can make such comparisons / contrasts worthless.
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Dan Kelly

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2007, 02:47:21 PM »
Quote from: John Kirk on December 08, 2007, 11:48:04 AM

It's only natural.  I see two women, and I think one looks best.  As I get older, my score becomes less important ...

John --

I thought you were still talking about those women!

Welcome to the fray, Dean.

I'm on the record here, numerous times, on your side of this question. I like ratings (how good); I don't like rankings (which is "better" among equally rated courses).

I'm perfectly happy, as I'm sure you are, to compare and contrast golf courses -- and feel no need to rank the greats against the greats.

But that argument goes nowhere here, and never will. Too many rankers here, for one thing!

Dan

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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2007, 02:59:07 PM »
For me, it all boils down to how and why you are copmaring courses.

If you're comparing elements, trying to determine what works and what doesn't, and maybe looking to see where things fit into the greater hierarchy of gca, more power to you.

If you're looking to brag about what you've played, what you shot, what clubs you hit into certain greens, worshiping certain architects for no apparent reason, worrying about who ranks 73rd versus who ranks 77th, etc, etc - well, I don't much see the point of that.

Welcome to the site, Dean, don't be shy.
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Bart Bradley

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2007, 03:50:18 PM »
Dean:

Are you trying to tell me that you don't have a "favorite" course, or hole, or hazard, or routing, or ambiance....And if you do have a favorite, aren't you, in fact, ranking your experience.  If someone asks you about your favorite course, do you answer "oh, I don't really have a favorite...you can't compare golf courses"????

I sure know that I naturally rank my experiences on golf courses and holes...and to be entirely honest, it has ZERO to do with my score.  In fact, I often find lots to appreciate about a course or hole that I find difficult or challenging...

Bart
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Dean Stokes

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2007, 03:59:36 PM »
Thankyou Dan. I will sit all night long after a round of golf and discuss the course we just played. The routing, the layout, the green complexes, the bunkering etc. etc. I do not feel compelled however to discuss if it is better/ worse than another course. They are all different and individual and we should talk about the architecture on a case by case issue instead of pitting them against each other all the time.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 04:01:06 PM by Dean Stokes »
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Dean Stokes

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2007, 04:08:43 PM »
Bart - sorry to disappoint but I don't think I have a favorite golf course. I have played many good ones and many awful ones. Again all are different. I may be able to say "that was a good links course", or "that course had great bunkering" or "that course was on a poor piece of land but what a great job the designer did". I'm certainly never going to say "that was the best course I ever played" because I don't think I could do that.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 04:09:05 PM by Dean Stokes »
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2007, 04:30:36 PM »
Quote from: Mark_Rowlinson on December 08, 2007, 01:33:49 PM

I think that as long as we state why we like or dislike something and why we prefer one course to another our judgements should be respected by others on this site. By all means let them disagree - and state why - but respect the other person's judgement even if you cannot agree.

Mark, This is very well put.
Too many times, the answer you do get is a non-answer, or you get no answer at all.

I.e. The recent Stone Eagle thread had a comment from a fellow newbie. His pot shot at the course was queried, but to avail. The gentleman has not offered a justification for his opinion.

Dean, I would discourage using any formulas for evaluations.
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Bart Bradley

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2007, 05:07:04 PM »
Quote from: Dean Stokes on December 08, 2007, 04:08:43 PM
Bart - sorry to disappoint but I don't think I have a favorite golf course. I have played many good ones and many awful ones. Again all are different. I may be able to say "that was a good links course", or "that course had great bunkering" or "that course was on a poor piece of land but what a great job the designer did". I'm certainly never going to say "that was the best course I ever played" because I don't think I could do that.

Dean:

Does this apply to all aspects of your life?  Do you not have a favorite food or restaurant, favorite drink, favorite sport (golf, I suspect), favorite place to sit on the porch and have an adult beverage, favorite place to relax...?  Obviously, you have every right to not have a favorite but this seems so foreign to me that I almost cannot fathom it...It is not my reality.

By analogy, can you only say that was a "really good Chinese restaurant" and not say that perhaps you have a preference for an Italian restaurant.  And if I do have a favorite, what is wrong with my explaining why I prefer one over the other....If thoughtfully done, might this not provide enlightenment on what makes for a better experience and in so doing, allow for heightened product in the future?

Bart
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J_ Crisham

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2007, 09:02:25 PM »
Dean,  Just see Cypress Point and Iguarantee that you will have a favorite! ;D
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John Kirk

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Re:Comparing golf courses?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2007, 09:13:11 PM »
Dean,

I just wanted to point out I don't feel you opened a can of worms.  This is not controversial, just a subject which evokes passion.
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