[Kirk Stewart]

When playing to a pin cut in front, the shot must be played high and soft and to a back pin, low and running. A pin cut right should be attacked with a fade and left with a draw (for you side winders reverse it).

What course or GCA penalizes the player the most for failing to deliver upon this adage?  

Current Era ?

[Robert Kimball]

Augusta #11?

Not sure if the current hole design counts nowadays....

[JESII]

Kirk,

So the question is...which course or gca has or builds the most penalties right at the edge of the green? Correct?

[Phil Benedict]

What percentage of golfers can execute the shots Hogan mentions?  5%?

[JESII]

Phil,

My handicap floats between 0 and +3 and I try all those shots because I think it's the right way to play golf and I can't do it...I'm serious...

[Jim Thompson]

Can we thus assume Hogan would have been a center line pivot point type of guy???

[Jim Sweeney]

Has to be Oakmont or any course with a large number of greens sloping front to back.

Most greens in the golden age were built sloping form back to front. Think about that and the Hogan statement and you will figure out why he made it.

Actually, I have heard that statement expressed differently- play a hard, spinning/stopping shot to a front hole location (interpretation- keep the ball short of the hole), and a soft, running shot to a rear one (feed the ball to a back location- no need to fly one there risking going over the green-let the slope of the green work for you). It makes no difference, however, to the analysis.

[Kirk Stewart]

Has to be Oakmont or any course with a large number of greens sloping front to back.

Most greens in the golden age were built sloping form back to front. Think about that and the Hogan statement and you will figure out why he made it.

Actually, I have heard that statement expressed differently- play a hard, spinning/stopping shot to a front hole location (interpretation- keep the ball short of the hole), and a soft, running shot to a rear one (feed the ball to a back location- no need to fly one there risking going over the green-let the slope of the green work for you). It makes no difference, however, to the analysis.

Jim,


Oakmont is one of courses I was thinking of as well. With Oakmont, however, one faces another challenge--greens sloping front to back.

[A.G._Crockett]

Phil,

My handicap floats between 0 and +3 and I try all those shots because I think it's the right way to play golf and I can't do it...I'm serious...

I can play all of those shots.  I just never know the moment or order in which each is going to occur...

[JESII]

Phil,

My handicap floats between 0 and +3 and I try all those shots because I think it's the right way to play golf and I can't do it...I'm serious...

I can play all of those shots.  I just never know the moment or order in which each is going to occur...

Me too...




Kirk,

You ask which course penalizes the most for failing to hit the correct shot...I am confused by the question...Oakmont is certainly very difficult (so I hear), but why would I be penalized there for not hitting the correct shot? Do the greens themselves actually reward a fade to a right pin better than a draw that lands in a good spot? Questions like that...

[Jerry Kluger]

I'm just wondering if Mr. Hogan would have felt the need to play different type shots if he had today's technology - I doubt it.

[Bill_McBride]

Jim, hasn't today's equipment - clubs and balls both - deliberately made it more difficult to work the ball the way Hogan recommended?  Everything seems to be designed to minimize side spin and most of the pros hit everything dead straight.  The setup for most PGA courses favors the guy who can hit it dead straight to a precise distance.

I am thinking of courses like the Orange County National pair where they just played the Q School finals.  Huge flattish and soft greens.  No need to work the ball, just bombs away to the right distance.

The firmer the course plays, and the more contoured the greens, the more important is the ability to work the ball.

However, I don't think a low running shot will be successful on #1, #10 or #12 at Oakmont under any circumstances, so Hogan apparently wasn't thinking of Oakmont.  (Unless the low running shot lands about 20 yards in front of the green........)

[JESII]

Bill,

Very true about today's equipment not letting the ball move as much, but I think guys still move the ball...I disagree that setups favor a straight shot any more than they ever have...I just think it's a hell of alot easier to hit it straight today.

Also, I don't think Hogan had a particular course in mind with that comment...I think he thought of it as the right way to play the game.



Jerry,

My opinion is that it was easier to hit a fairway with the old equipment than it is today. In the old days you had the full width of the fairway to use because you would aim down the side that your ball was going to work away from and swing away...today they aim down the middle and hope for a straight ball...I think they only use half the fairway...not to mention the inability to work the ball around a dogleg...now they try to go over the corner...

[Art Roselle]

I seem to remember Hogan also supposedly played ANGC with a guy who hit a big high draw into a far right hole location on #4.  The guy pulled it off, but Hogan was so disgusted he said, "I don't know what sport you're playing, but it's not golf."

[JESII]

I seem to remember Hogan also supposedly played ANGC with a guy who hit a big high draw into a far right hole location on #4.  The guy pulled it off, but Hogan was so disgusted he said, "I don't know what sport you're playing, but it's not golf."

I read that same type of quote, but it was about #10 at Winged Foot...

I guess this plays into another line of Hogan's...something about never aiming at the trouble because when you don't pull off your shot it goes straight (and into whatever trouble you were aiming at)...

How many of us would classify their misses as going TOO STRAIGHT?

And back to Kirk's opening post..."What course or GCA penalizes the player the most for failing to deliver upon this adage?"

What constitutes a failure to deliver? I could miss my target 20 feet right and be buried deep in a bunker, and you could miss 20 feet left and have a 20 footer for birdie...I don't think this is course specific.

Is there a course that best rewards what Hogan would call proper shotmaking?

[Jim Sweeney]

Bill:

I think the original question implied that on some courses Hogan's philosophy would not work. Oakmont, with its large number of front-to-back sloping greens, seems to fit that bill.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Very true about today's equipment not letting the ball move as much, but I think guys still move the ball...I disagree that setups favor a straight shot any more than they ever have...I just think it's a hell of alot easier to hit it straight today.

Also, I don't think Hogan had a particular course in mind with that comment...I think he thought of it as the right way to play the game.



Jerry,

My opinion is that it was easier to hit a fairway with the old equipment than it is today. In the old days you had the full width of the fairway to use because you would aim down the side that your ball was going to work away from and swing away...today they aim down the middle and hope for a straight ball...I think they only use half the fairway...not to mention the inability to work the ball around a dogleg...now they try to go over the corner...

Other than a very few, most of the modern players who do work the ball only hit a draw.  Corey Pavin is a throwback!

After fighting a duck hook as a kid, I learned to fade the tee shot and used the whole fairway.  I agree 100% with what you are saying about modern players using only half the fairway.  They are jsut doing what the equipment and ball are designed to do.

[JESII]

Jim,

I thought the original question was looking for which course, or architect, punishes the most the player who fails to do what Hogan suggested...

[Peter Pallotta]

This answer would never have occurred to me except for the last few posts, but Augusta seems to fit the bill -- at least the Augusta that Hogan played and Nicklaus won on so often. I know both preferred the fade, but that 'second shot' golf course sure seemed to reward the smart, golfy, golf shot. But even as I write this, the 'answer' seems surprising.

Peter  

[cary lichtenstein]

Phil,

My handicap floats between 0 and +3 and I try all those shots because I think it's the right way to play golf and I can't do it...I'm serious...

I can play all of those shots.  I just never know the moment or order in which each is going to occur...

I never hit a fade or a slice in my life, lots of draws, hooks, blocks and and an occasional straight ball.

[Jerry Kluger]

Sully: My understanding is that Hogan got in that hook mode because he wanted to maximize distance but he eventually learned that he couldn't keep it in play.  Today, the players have come to understand swing plane, etc., and have learned how to hit a draw and not a severe hook.  Their miss is supposed to be a push and they try and avoid a severe hook at all costs.  I have seen some guys who do play a fade including Vijay and Calc;  in watching them play, there is a very big difference when you watch Vijay hit a tee shot versus Charles Howell III - a high fade versus a low draw.  Where they hit it there is rarely a concern with the trouble around the green except at an Open or other firm conditions.

[JESII]

Thanks Jerry, I couldn't disagree with any of that...but Kirk started this thread with a certain question and I'm just fishing for the answer...although I feel like I am the only one...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

When playing to a pin cut in front, the shot must be played high and soft and to a back pin, low and running. A pin cut right should be attacked with a fade and left with a draw (for you side winders reverse it).

What course or GCA penalizes the player the most for failing to deliver upon this adage?  

Current Era ?

Kirk, there is little doubt in my mind--and I know I have to be right about this--it's Tom Fazio. Only Faz will mix it up by doing those same greens going both left and right.

The greens, usually somewhat elevated with a false front to a green set on a strong enough angle to get to the back right pin, you have to either cut it in there, or draw it in there or go over some deep bunkers. Many of his greens are bowls, enabling a safe haven to go long in the back with minimal trouble. I've always felt this, that those Fazio greens usually are trouble in the very front and way back corner.

The only problem with this is he just repeats it over and over and over and over and over and over; way too many times on all of his courses. Shadow Creek is no exception; but worse, see Oak Creek in Irvine.

[Art Roselle]

Tommy, I agree with your Fazio comment.  Capital City's crabapple course (north of Atlanta) was done by Fazio and most of the greens really force you to try to hit the correct shot if you want to get it close.  When they are soft you might get away with just hitting it at the hole, but they are usually firm fast and working the ball toward the hole works a lot better than trying to fly it in and stop it.  On 14, if the pin is up front, you actually have to land it well short of the green to get it close, which I haven't seen too often on American courses.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Art, It's probably the most penal aspect of most Fazio courses, don't you think?

(Note to myself/my most inner, deepest thoughts: Hold your line! Try to really make them think your looking at Fazio's architecture as really intelligent stuff, as in it's not one-dimensional, even though you know it really is! Yes, that's it! I fool them all! All of this GCA crowd who loves Fazio and gets really upset when I rag on him from time to time! They'll think, Hey, this is the new Tommy! Yes, thats what they'll think!)

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