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John Kavanaugh

What is fun to play?
« on: December 06, 2007, 10:00:13 AM »
Seems like the new buzz word for architects.  I don't think you guys can define it as easily as what is not fun.  It is no fun to lose balls, it is no fun to hit a tree from the fairway, it is no fun to have to hit balls sideways, it is no fun not to have recovery shots, it is no fun to have forced carries, I've heard it all for years.  Now tell me what is fun.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 10:05:45 AM »
John,

My answer is not architectural, and I don't think it would ever be...for me, the most fun I have on a course is when I know the course at least a little bit and the ground is really firm.

IF...course were prepared that way all the time, I think architecture would evolve to be more fun under those conditions...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 10:11:23 AM »
For me, the greatest fun is to be rewarded for starting a shot at Point A in order to get it to wind up at Point B -- because then you're using your brain and your physical skills.

It holds equally true for driving, approaching, short game and putting.

Donal Breasail

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 10:11:43 AM »
my understanding of fun to play is like alot of resort golf.Courses where the fairways are very wide and unless your ball is wet you will find it pretty quick.Courses that are very playable for all standards of golfers.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 10:14:29 AM by Don Breasail »

John Kavanaugh

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 10:13:08 AM »
John,

My answer is not architectural, and I don't think it would ever be...for me, the most fun I have on a course is when I know the course at least a little bit and the ground is really firm.

IF...course were prepared that way all the time, I think architecture would evolve to be more fun under those conditions...

That is based a large part on weather patterns.  I am more interested in variety like yesterday playing in a 3 club wind at 36 degs.  It was brutal...a really strange kind of fun.  I don't think golf would survive if these were common conditions.

I do belong to a course with a budget less than $100,000 for maintenance (including labor) and if you ever want to play firm and fast come here in the summer during a drought.  Firm and fast is fun but like anything else it grows old with out variety.

Donal Breasail

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 10:18:16 AM »
John,

My answer is not architectural, and I don't think it would ever be...for me, the most fun I have on a course is when I know the course at least a little bit and the ground is really firm.

IF...course were prepared that way all the time, I think architecture would evolve to be more fun under those conditions...

That is based a large part on weather patterns.  I am more interested in variety like yesterday playing in a 3 club wind at 36 degs.  It was brutal...a really strange kind of fun.  I don't think golf would survive if these were common conditions.

I do belong to a course with a budget less than $100,000 for maintenance (including labor) and if you ever want to play firm and fast come here in the summer during a drought.  Firm and fast is fun but like anything else it grows old with out variety.

Is your maintainance department a one man show.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 10:20:33 AM »
Disagree with your last sentence...firmness is required for variety to exist, otherwise it's throwing darts...even if you miss the board, the dart just sticks in the wall...



Tom's post makes me amend the thought that it would never depend on architecture because he is right, there does need to be movement for the firmness to really be fun...

Tom Huckaby

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 10:24:05 AM »
Playing golf is fun for me no matter what.

Golf is MOST fun when the course provides a large variety of challenges, both physical and mental, and gives me a fighting chance to succeed from time to time.  Scenic beauty adds to the fun also, but is not required.

TH
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 10:24:50 AM by Tom Huckaby »

John Kavanaugh

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 10:31:49 AM »
John,

My answer is not architectural, and I don't think it would ever be...for me, the most fun I have on a course is when I know the course at least a little bit and the ground is really firm.

IF...course were prepared that way all the time, I think architecture would evolve to be more fun under those conditions...

That is based a large part on weather patterns.  I am more interested in variety like yesterday playing in a 3 club wind at 36 degs.  It was brutal...a really strange kind of fun.  I don't think golf would survive if these were common conditions.

I do belong to a course with a budget less than $100,000 for maintenance (including labor) and if you ever want to play firm and fast come here in the summer during a drought.  Firm and fast is fun but like anything else it grows old with out variety.

Is your maintainance department a one man show.

Don,

I just spoke to the chairman of that committee and he told me I was way off.  The budget is closer to $85,000 including chemicals and equipment repair.  We have a head super and two guys close to minimum wage.  With 200 members at $480 per year dues the money is tight considering they are still paying off a note.

John Kavanaugh

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 10:33:56 AM »
Disagree with your last sentence...firmness is required for variety to exist, otherwise it's throwing darts...even if you miss the board, the dart just sticks in the wall...



Tom's post makes me amend the thought that it would never depend on architecture because he is right, there does need to be movement for the firmness to really be fun...

You are talking about mud.  A ball can release and the ground not be considered firm or fast.

I think Doak makes a great point about movement of the ball which explains why I think curving a ball around a tree is fun.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 10:33:57 AM »
I like watching shots that take a long time to come to rest.  Have I said that before?

I like the occasional blind shot.

I like undulating courses that play a bit different from round to round.

Weatherwise, I tend to like warm conditions more than the average guy.  Give me a 90 degree day with some humidity and I'm happy.  Of course, I don't experience that often, so it's new and exciting for me.  But I like 100 with low humidity too.  Drink plenty of water and let the sweat pour.

If fun to play is the new paradigm, then progress has been made.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2007, 10:34:17 AM »
I have fun on a course that makes me think about not hitting driver on almost every par 4 and 5. I HATE a course that makes me think that way due to how narrow every hole is.

I have fun on a course that gives me generous bail out options, but always with a "pay me now or pay me later" challenge. I HATE hazards you can't recover from or steer away from if you so desire.

I have fun on a course with creative greens that demand more than the lawndart approach shot or purely pace on the approach putt. The heroic two putt can be very memorable, as is the delicate chip/pitch that rides the contours on the way towards to hole.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Brent Hutto

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2007, 10:36:21 AM »
I think Tom hit on it, starting the ball toward one spot when you want it to end up at another. If I were a good player, I'll bet I'd fall in love with working the ball right-left-high-low at every opportunity. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of control over contact with the ball.

Wind, green contours and/or a firm-and-fast ground game can provide that sort of opportunity to players of any standard, 20-handicap short/crooked hitter included. When you get all three of those working together it's almost guaranteed to be a fun day for anyone not obsessed with seeing small numbers of a scorecard.

I recall a shot several months ago at my home course where a layup had gone offline and ended up with a tree between me and the hole. But I realized that a ridge down the middle of the green would kick the ball over toward the hole and that a shot right of the tree would be blown left by that day's wind and catch the ridge. I pulled it off and seeing that ball drift left, left, left, barely catch the crown of the ridge and then roll toward the hole (and yes, I actually made the putt too) was about as fun as anything could be short of maybe holing out for an ace or eagle.

I had an epiphany on the last day of my Buda Cup trip when I played the first few hole at Ganton on a breezy day. I've always considered fairway bunkering to be a ridiculously overblown obsession of this group and of golf-course lovers in general. I mean, sure I get the idea that you can offer a half-stroke hazard to the golfer who slightly misses the most desirable line on his tee shot. Too-widely avoid the bunker and lose maybe a half-shot by being out of position, go in the bunker and lose a half-shot by laying up. Cut it close and get the ideal approach shot. All well and good but it ain't the most important thing about a golf course.

But if the wind is blowing AND the bunkers are artfully arranged AND the ground is firm enough that the ball can roll into a bunker OR roll around the bunker if properly struck...now that's a magic formula there. It has nothing to do with shaggy versus flashed edges or the color of the sand. It has to do with the interaction of the bunker's location, the ground contours up to 40 yards away from the bunkers and the various optional paths to the green (air+ground) that arise from that day's wind and ground conditions.

Under those circumstances, it's all about the bunkers and those tee shots come to life. So to add to Tom's statement, fun is hitting the ball to Point A in order to get to Point B while avoiding Point C. Fairway bunkers and wind are one way to do it, green complex contours and greenside bunkering are another. Heck, I love greens where the penalty of having to fly the ball over a fronting bunker is ameliorated by a backstop of sidestop if you fly it in on the proper line. That works with no wind or it can really get fun when amplified by being downwind. It's all fun.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2007, 10:38:41 AM »

You are talking about mud.  A ball can release and the ground not be considered firm or fast.

I think Doak makes a great point about movement of the ball which explains why I think curving a ball around a tree is fun.

No it can't...not off of a quality shot...even a chip 4 iron from 150 will stop very quickly if it's soft and slow...

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2007, 10:50:10 AM »
Especially soft.

I like hitting unusual shots. Approaches to greens falling away, drives over cross bunkers, punch approach shots, putts aiming significantly away from the hole.

Pretty much what Tom D said, just in a less interesting manner.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2007, 10:50:17 AM »

You are talking about mud.  A ball can release and the ground not be considered firm or fast.

I think Doak makes a great point about movement of the ball which explains why I think curving a ball around a tree is fun.

No it can't...not off of a quality shot...even a chip 4 iron from 150 will stop very quickly if it's soft and slow...

Now you are just bragging.

John Kavanaugh

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2007, 10:51:35 AM »
Especially soft.

I like hitting unusual shots. Approaches to greens falling away, drives over cross bunkers, punch approach shots, putts aiming significantly away from the hole.

Pretty much what Tom D said, just in a less interesting manner.

George,

So you think it is fun to be penalized for a poor shot.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2007, 10:59:24 AM »
I gotta think about that train of thought.

But off the top of my head, I'd say:

It depends.

Hitting a curving shot around a tree isn't so unusual to me - at least attempting it. But, curiously enough, the shot I consider my all time best was just that, so there's certainly an element of truth there.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 11:04:18 AM »
IMHO, Brora Golf Club embodies fun for me.

I believe it's partly the sheep, who "manage" the rough in such a way that it's more difficult to lose ball than places like Dornoch, but you still aren't going to score if you hit it in the wrong spot.

Everything about the place is fun.

Where else can you find a proto bunker like this?



Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 11:07:27 AM »
That looks like it would be a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad lie ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2007, 11:14:33 AM »
That looks like it would be a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad lie ...

Groan....  ;D

But since you're here, Mr. Benham... and since you and I have discussed this issue ad nauseam off-line... perhaps you could give a pithy sentence or two (as I did) about what you find most fun in golf?

Is it all about excecution?

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2007, 11:30:19 AM »

So to add to Tom's statement, fun is hitting the ball to Point A in order to get to Point B while avoiding Point C.


I think Doak left out point C for a very good reason.  I do not think the new "fun" model of architecture likes the word avoidance.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2007, 12:47:04 PM »
For me, the greatest fun is to be rewarded for starting a shot at Point A in order to get it to wind up at Point B -- because then you're using your brain and your physical skills.

It holds equally true for driving, approaching, short game and putting.

For me, the greatest fun is to TRY starting a shot at Point A in order to get it to wind up at Point B.

If the course asks me to make an interesting shot (drive, approach, pitch, chip, flop, blast, or putt), and I execute it as I intended to, that's fun -- no matter how it turns out: success or failure, reward or punishment. Of course it's MORE fun if it turns out well -- but it's plenty of fun either way.

That's the only thing I've ever really learned about playing golf happily: Attach yourself to the effort, not to the result. If I do what I hoped to do, I'm a happy boy.

Ooooh, my beard is starting to hurt!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom Huckaby

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2007, 12:53:42 PM »
Dan:  beard pulling or not, you just described NATO golf - something I strive for all the time... sometimes succeed, sometimes don't... but some of the happiest golf times are when that is reached.

Not
Attached
To
Outcome

What's weird - and great - is that other very happy times occur when one IS attached to outcome... I've had some great joys in competitive golf as well...

But this is getting far afield from JK's question, which has to do with courses, not approaches to the game.  My bad.

TH


Doug Ralston

Re:What is fun to play?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2007, 03:11:50 PM »
John;

I am certain 'fun' is different for different folks.

For me, it is great challenges. Oddly, not being very good, I know I will fail most of the time. But when I do get some success, there is quite an adrenilin rush. I buy my golf balls for $.50/, so I accept some will depart, never to return. I just want the laughs. When I hit one into the water on an island green hole, I do NOT go to the drop area, I just reload. Eventually, I WILL hit one on ...... and that is fun!  ;)

Doug