[Robert Kimball]

I thought this was funny:

I am interested in this book, and saw this following description on ebooks.com. Whoever wrote this certainly isn't a golfer and most likely didn't read the book.  
And is the part concerning all the spectators accurate? I wouldn't think the real CPC would let that happen.
-- Rob

Description
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Eddie Lowery left his first imprint on the game of golf in 1913 as the 10–year–old caddie to underdog U.S. Open champion Francis Ouimet. Best–selling author Mark Frost continues Lowery’s story 43 years later with Lowery as a multi–millionaire car–dealer, who boasted to fellow millionaire and golf staple George Coleman that amateur golfers Harvie Ward and Ken Venturi could hands down beat any other two golfers in the world in a best ball match. A bet was made for a substantial sum of cash, and a tee time was set at the prestigious Cypress Point Country Club (Hampton Roads, Virginia) for Ward and Venturi to play whomever Coleman decided to bring. The morning of the match, Coleman showed up with the other half of the foursome: Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson, the two most distinguished golfers in the world. Despite efforts to keep the match under wraps from the public, word leaked out as soon as the men arrived at the course and a hundred people surrounded them by the time they reached the first tee. Three and a half hours later, nearing the conclusion of what many in the game now refer to as the greatest private match in the history of American golf, the crowd lining Highway 1 and the eighteenth fairway numbered close to five thousand people. Mark Frost brings to life an unlikely golf match that changed golf forever.

[Brad Tufts]

I just finished this book last night.

It gives a good description of the course, although easier to follow having been there.

As for the fill, there are long chapters about Ken Venturi, Harvie Ward, and especially the careers of Hogan and Nelson.  Having read the "Hogan" biography last year, those parts were a bit repetetive for me.

The match itself is very interesting, but without the biographical fill, it would've been a 50-page book.  My biggest complaint about the match commentary is that there are numerous mentions of winks, looks, grimaces, but less of the actual golf is described.  When a player makes a birdie, it's kind of anti-climactic.

A decent read for a Monterey/CP aficionado.

[Rick Shefchik]

Here we go again. Are we to believe that all those "winks," "looks" and "grimaces" were so etched in Ken Venturi's memory that he was able to accurately describe each of the ones mentioned in the book?

I don't think I can read "The Match." Every descriptive liberty taken with the actions of these four players (three of whom are not around to verify anything) would simply drive me crazy, and cause me doubt other parts of the narrative. The straight facts (and Venturi's most vivid memories) of this remarkable match would have been enough.

[Bob_Huntley]

I have not read the book and feel that I might blow a gasket should I do so.

Is this in it?

"Three and a half hours later, nearing the conclusion of what many in the game now refer to as the greatest private match in the history of American golf, the crowd lining Highway 1 and the eighteenth fairway numbered close to five thousand people. Mark Frost brings to life an unlikely golf match that changed golf forever."

Any one that knows Cypress, would tell you that Highway 1 does not border the 18th hole, in fact the road is not even in Pebble Beach. Secondly, to say that there were five thousand spectators on the 18th hole is simply absurd. You would have to have all of those spectators standing shoulder to shoulder covering the fairway from tee to green.

Some of the stuff about George Coleman is incorrect.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Well Bob, given that the Cypress Point described in that quote is said to be in Hampton Roads, Virginia, then heck,  the stuff about Highway 1 and 5000 spectators could well be true.

 

I am not sure which "facts" in that mini-review are coming from the reviewer, and which are coming from Frost's book, but either way it sure doesn't reflect well on either of them.

I've been a defender of Frost before... I still say I enjoyed his book about the famous Ouimet US Open win ("Golf's Greatest Game")... but I guess it took something hitting relatively close to home to get me bothered.

Because this DOES bother me.

TH

[SL_Solow]

Huck;  its about time.  Historical fiction is a popular and interesting genre.  It ordinarily places a fictional character in and around historical events and allows the author to try and give the reader an insight into how it "must have felt" to be there while creating an interesting story to go along with the history.  A fine example is Forrester's Hornblower series set in the british navy during the Napoleonic wars.  These are clearly works of fiction and denominated as such.

The problem I have with Frost's work (and I haven't read the new one, only excerpts in magazines) is that he doesn't add characters or a plot, he simply tells the "story" but with "details" that only he could imagine.  Too often he gets it wrong based on the historical record.  For me, his attempt to humanize the history doesn't add anything and candidly, his "insights" and prose aren't anything out of the ordinary.  I will give him this; he selects interesting events.  Its going to be harder to write books like this as time goes on because modern TV coverage reduces the amount of ambiguity as to what really happened and the press coverage and journalistic style explores many of the subjects which Frost is free to invent.  But I suppose we might expect a novel chronicling Nelson's win streak or any number of events predating comprehensive TV coverage.

[Tom Huckaby]

Shel:

I understand all of that.  My defense remains that at least with the prior books, Frost made no attempt to declare this as anything but fiction.. and the parts that bothered people here were so obviously fictitious (thoughts inside the minds of each of Ouimet and Vardon, for example) that to be bothered by them not being "fact" just struck me as odd.

But when he gets obvious geographic details wrong, well than that's too much, even for me.

BTW, I know Dan King cited the publisher saying these were non-fiction books, but I still don't buy it.  To me they are all historical fictioln at best.

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

Huck,

Wouldn't it make all this nit-picking moot if Frost's publisher would simply label his books accurately? I wouldn't make a peep about them if they were categorized as "historical fiction."

This is the same argument the nation engaged in a year or so ago when "A Million Little Pieces," labeled a memoir and hyped to the skies by Oprah, turned out to be fiction. My wife read it, thinking it really happened to this guy, and was enthralled by it. I think she would have enjoyed the read every bit as much if the publisher had called it, accurately, fiction.

Then again, Oprah probably wouldn't have picked it for one of her books, and it would have sold about 900,000 fewer copies...

[SL_Solow]

What does he add?  There are no new characters of importance?  No plot.  No insight.  Merely an attempt to be a mind reader scores of years after the fact.  Even the psychological "insights" are sophomoric at best.  I guess since the books are about golf and intersting events connected with the game we love, some of us will read them and be satisfied.  I am afraid I'll receive a copy as a gift, the same way I got the last one.

[George Pazin]

Some trial lawyer somewhere is trying desperately to find a plaintiff who's suffered irreparable damage....

Now THAT'S non-fiction!

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Rick:  it would make this all a lot easier if they were labelled as historical fiction.  But reading "Greatest Game", it was so obviously such to me that I was shocked when Dan showed me how they were labelled.  As a consumer and not an author, I was unconcerned.  But yes, in a more perfect world they are labelled correctly.

Shel:  well, I enjoyed the Ouimet tale, however one wants to label it.  What he added for me as a fleshing out of a tale I had previously only known the barest details about.  If he embellished things on the way to getting to these bare details, it did not bother me.  But again, since to me it was so obviously historical fiction, I was looking at it as such and it was thus pretty mindless entertainment.  Because yes, it was about golf, and it was a pretty darn exciting tournament.

TH

[Michael Moore]

Its going to be harder to write books like this as time goes on because modern TV coverage reduces the amount of ambiguity as to what really happened and the press coverage and journalistic style explores many of the subjects which Frost is free to invent.

As he tapped in his miss, the rage was palpable and a hush fell over the thirteenth green. Garcia hovered over the edge of the cup, and, to the astonishment of the gallery, delicately released a strand of saliva towards it. Whether it landed "in the middle" remains a question for the ages . . .

[Rick Shefchik]

Great example, Michael. I would add these embellishments (if I were a Frost-like reconstructionist):

"As he tapped in his miss, the rage was palpable and a hush fell over the thirteenth green. "I am such a sheeety poatter," the fiery Spaniard thought to himself as he hovered over the edge of the cup. To the astonishment of the gallery, Garcia delicately released a strand of saliva towards it, all the while mentally cursing his father for failing to teach him the crosshanded putting grip when he was first learning the game.

Whether his gob landed "in the middle" remains a question for the ages . . .

[Bob_Huntley]

My beef is that if you wish to embellish your story, fine, but at least have some idea of the geography of the place where these events happened. Ian Fleming never put a foot wrong in his Bond stuff, which made it all the more interesting.

Bob

[JohnV]

I have not read the book and feel that I might blow a gasket should I do so.

Is this in it?

"Three and a half hours later, nearing the conclusion of what many in the game now refer to as the greatest private match in the history of American golf, the crowd lining Highway 1 and the eighteenth fairway numbered close to five thousand people. Mark Frost brings to life an unlikely golf match that changed golf forever."

Any one that knows Cypress, would tell you that Highway 1 does not border the 18th hole, in fact the road is not even in Pebble Beach. Secondly, to say that there were five thousand spectators on the 18th hole is simply absurd. You would have to have all of those spectators standing shoulder to shoulder covering the fairway from tee to green.

Some of the stuff about George Coleman is incorrect.

Bob

Not to dispute you,but does anyone here know for a fact that Highway 1 wasn't moved at some point between the 1950s and today?  It could be that it ran through the coastal communities before being rerouted into the bypass of Carmel, PG and Monterey that it is today.

I have no idea if that is true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it originally ran around the point rather than over the hill as it does today.

[Brad Tufts]

All:

I just read the appendix to the book, with Frost's recounting the story of how Cypress Point came to be.  He touches on the history of Monterey, Samuel Morse, Pebble Beach, Marion Hollins, and how MacKenzie was hired and built the famed layout.

I spotted a classic error, at least I think.  In going over MacKenzie's background, it is explained how he originally partnered with Colt before striking out on his own.

It is highlighted, in italics, that Colt's full name is Harry "Shapeland" (in italics, not quotation marks) Colt, and how "fitting" this was for a golf architect to be given a middle name of Shape Land. Ha.

I've always seen the middle name as Shapland.  If I'm right, this is a ridiculous sentence, such an easily checkable mistake, and blasphemy to us GCA geeks.  This is a big error to get written and past the editors.  They must have assumed he spelled it right if he was going to make a pun on the spelling...  

What a great golf course architecture malapropism!

Ouch...

[Ken Moum]

Rick:  it would make this all a lot easier if they were labelled as historical fiction.  But reading "Greatest Game", it was so obviously such to me that I was shocked when Dan showed me how they were labelled.  As a consumer and not an author, I was unconcerned.  But yes, in a more perfect world they are labelled correctly.

What makes it difficult for me is that each of the people who have recommended the book to me thought it was nonfiction. And I believe they are typical.

I only got about a quarter of the way through it before I gave up and started looking for an author's note about the story. It's in the back of the book, and he did not call it historical fiction.

Ken

[Robert Kimball]

I am pretty sure I will get it for Christmas as well. My wife, who doesn't know much about golf, knows well enough that I am a big fan of MacKenzie and CPC and Pasatiempo.

It will be hard to top the bag of colored tees I received one Christmas. Nothing like a pink tee to give you confidence on your drive!!  

Maybe one day Huckaby and I will have a match at CPC to rival this one -- and I will turn it into a best seller!!

[Bob_Huntley]

I have not read the book and feel that I might blow a gasket should I do so.

Is this in it?

"Three and a half hours later, nearing the conclusion of what many in the game now refer to as the greatest private match in the history of American golf, the crowd lining Highway 1 and the eighteenth fairway numbered close to five thousand people. Mark Frost brings to life an unlikely golf match that changed golf forever."

Any one that knows Cypress, would tell you that Highway 1 does not border the 18th hole, in fact the road is not even in Pebble Beach. Secondly, to say that there were five thousand spectators on the 18th hole is simply absurd. You would have to have all of those spectators standing shoulder to shoulder covering the fairway from tee to green.

Some of the stuff about George Coleman is incorrect.

Bob

Not to dispute you,but does anyone here know for a fact that Highway 1 wasn't moved at some point between the 1950s and today?  It could be that it ran through the coastal communities before being rerouted into the bypass of Carmel, PG and Monterey that it is today.

I have no idea if that is true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it originally ran around the point rather than over the hill as it does today.

John,

I can assure you that in the fifties Highway 1 is in about the same place as now. Pebble Beach was a gated community decades before The Match.


Bob

[Phil Benedict]

Mark Frost has to earn a living too!

However, his latest is a pale shadow of the Greatest Game.  In that case, even if he took liberties with the facts, the story itself is so improbable and wonderful that I can live with it.  I mean c'mon, the kid from across the street winning the US Open with a 10-year old caddie on his bag.  You couldn't have made it up.

What was sort of interesting about the Match is stuff like club selection, which I assume Frost gets right.  They all hit driver on 16 on what was supposed to be a fairly calm day.  Moderns pros would be hitting a 3 or a 4-iron.  Shows how much the game has changed.

There are a couple of interesting factoids as well.  For instance, the Masters invited Harvie Ward back after the USGA had taken his amateur status away.  Even in those days, before television made the Masters a world class sporting event (as Hootie used to say), Cliff Roberts and Bob Jones were already a law unto themselves.

[Robert Thompson]

I literally just got off the phone with Frost, and asked a lot of questions about all three of his golf books. I don't have time to transcribe the quotes now, but I'll put some of them up on my blog with my review of the book next week.

He defends his position well, and says a lot of the commentary about use of direct quotes in Greatest Game and The Match is "overdone." He says he had access to most of the individuals in question -- or friends who had heard direct accounts on the stories from Ward or Lowery.

It is an interesting debate -- and I'll throw some of the audio clips on the blog as well, so people can hear his perspective directly.

That said, he's one of the few writers to bring major attention to golf design. As he told me, Cypress is treated like a character....

[Tom Huckaby]

Looking forward to reading that, Robert.  If you would be so kind, please alert us here.. or give us the URL to your blog now.  As a some-time defender of the man, I will be very interested in Frost's defense.

I'll also be interested in hearing how in the heck he managed to gain access to the inner thoughts of Vardon and Ouimet.

 

Rob - to make descriptions of our match a best seller, I think we'd need a writer with the imagination of Frost, and I don't mean Mark.

TH

[Dan King]

Frost writes what he considers non-fiction. He does it in a very sloppy manner, doing little to no research. My only experience is with his Greatest Game book. It had so many details wrong, I never got past page 100. Some of you seem to believe facts aren't as important as a good story, but I'm glad to see Huckaby is finally coming to see the danger of writing such sloppy history.

I look forward to hearing Frost trying to justify his sloppy research.

Regarding Highway 1, there is a Web sight discussing the history of the California highways. I don't know the geography of Monterey as well as some of you, but I don't see anything about the highway running through Pebble Beach.

Click here to read a history of Highway 1

That took me about 15 minutes of research, apparently more time than Frost bothered taking.

Cheers,
Grandan King

A library, to modify the famous metaphor of Socrates, should be the delivery room for the birth of ideas—a place where history comes to life.
 --Norman Cousins

[Tom Huckaby]

Well now Dan don't get too gladdened about me - I still think Greatest Game was a very fun and worthwhile book, as whatever errors he had in there were meaningless to me... and again, to me it was so obviously historical fiction, I don't care what he or his publishers call it.

Now this new book however does hit a little closer to home, so yes, it tends to bother me more.

So see, I continue to have zero principles in this matter and remain a selfish consumer.

 

TH

ps - the stuff about Highway 1 comes from the mini-review... can someone who's read this book confirm if Frost makes this mistake?  If he does, then he's losing me.

[Bob_Huntley]

I literally just got off the phone with Frost, and asked a lot of questions about all three of his golf books. I don't have time to transcribe the quotes now, but I'll put some of them up on my blog with my review of the book next week.

He defends his position well, and says a lot of the commentary about use of direct quotes in Greatest Game and The Match is "overdone." He says he had access to most of the individuals in question -- or friends who had heard direct accounts on the stories from Ward or Lowery.

It is an interesting debate -- and I'll throw some of the audio clips on the blog as well, so people can hear his perspective directly.

That said, he's one of the few writers to bring major attention to golf design. As he told me, Cypress is treated like a character....

Robert,

Frost may well have spoken to some friends of Lowery et al but two he should have called were Coleman's daughter, who was a very good golfer and his butler Franco, who was there the whole time.

Bob

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