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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« on: November 22, 2007, 03:54:50 PM »
I was discussing rankings, "best news" and the whole nature of magazine rankings with a client who goes through the same system when it comes to ski resorts.

Argument against disclosure: Doing so would allow course owners to lobby and pass perks on to panelists. A comment from the other side says that keeping panelists names cloaked gives the impression that there is never any lobbying or perking, yet it is a well known fact that lists get out and lobbying occurs.

Argument in favor of disclosure: Since some resourceful owners and PR firms can find out the identities anyway, it evens the playing board. A comment from the other side says that disclosure would create a free-for-all with houdning of panelists by everyone and their brother.

What say you all?

« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 03:55:55 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Michael Christensen

Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2007, 04:07:43 PM »
in favor of total transparency and a level playing field.....it would hopefully eliminate the perks and the "do you know who I am" panelists who try to run rough shod over new clubs/courses

Brian Cenci

Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2007, 04:18:48 PM »
Forest,
     I don't know how other "ratings" go and I'm sort of new to the whole golf course rating deal but I really don't see  a lot of this going on...and if it does I can't see it working (bribes, etc.) and really affecting a courses overall ranking because I imagine that most rankings are based off a minimum number of  ratings by different raters (20 or 25).  So thinking a course could try and bribe that many raters doesn't jive with me.  I really don't think publishing or not publishing the names would make a difference.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2007, 04:33:39 PM »
As far as I know there is already full transparancy. On the occasions when I call a course to arrange a tee time as a panelist, I announce what my intentions are and with which magazine panel I am on. More times than not, the person on the other end of phone will write down the wrong magazine and I will make sure to rectify that error when I findout about it.
 
As for perks, they are not offered the way they are implied in the original post, that I have seen. And if they were, they wouldn't be accepted and have zero barring on the evaluation of the golf course.

There's only one way I know of to get the recognition this owner appears to covet. Build him something very good, to great.








"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brian Cenci

Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2007, 04:43:48 PM »
Completely agree with Adam.  I just don't see pirks or bribes going on in the rating business....especially not to the level you imply in your post.

-Brian

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2007, 05:01:27 PM »
Adam / Brian — The focus of this question is whether magazines should publish, openly, the names of raters. Whether or not there are perks or lobbying, is not the primary question.

While it is obvious that building a great golf course is paramount, I would submit that several golf courses have been rated well even though they may not truly be deserving. And, of those, at least some were very likely controlled by very resourceful owners who got a hold of raters in their locales and did whatever reasonable to get them to stop by and provide as positive evaluation as possible. The downside of this (not publishing) is that the un-resourceful (public, out-of-the-way, small scale...whatever) course/owner may never be able to attain even the inkling of attention from panelists.


— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2007, 05:04:31 PM »
Forrest,

Golf Mag( or was it Golfweek?) did publish their list of raters and Golf digest guys , from my experience, seek comps up front so isn't there already a lot of transperency?

Ward
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2007, 05:09:03 PM »
Yes, I recall that GOLF did publish names. I am not sure whether they do any longer.

There is not much transparency in terms of publishing. I do believe that most raters are well mannered in identifying themselves and in not giving in to overt perks — at least the raters I have known and seen at courses.

Again, this is not about raters behavior, but rather about the question of whether it is a better or worse "system" if magazines would publish and make available the identities of their rating panelists.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2007, 05:11:02 PM »
Forrest, So the owner of this obscure course would do what with the information?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2007, 05:28:55 PM »
I suppose, if panelists identities were published, ALL golf courses would be on a level playing field to send communications to panelists, make them aware of openings, remodels, improvements, changes, etc.

If just one PR firm gets their hands on a list of magazine panelists — let's say GD and GW — I would think they have a tremendous advantage for their client in getting panelists to a recently remodeled course. Now, that doesn't take the place  of great golf course design and implementation, but it does solve one equation: Getting the word out on an individual basis.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2007, 05:41:30 PM »
Forest,
     I don't know how other "ratings" go and I'm sort of new to the whole golf course rating deal but I really don't see  a lot of this going on...and if it does I can't see it working (bribes, etc.) and really affecting a courses overall ranking because I imagine that most rankings are based off a minimum number of  ratings by different raters (20 or 25).  So thinking a course could try and bribe that many raters doesn't jive with me.  I really don't think publishing or not publishing the names would make a difference.
Brian,
With all due respect I think that while being new you may also be a little naive to this rating business.  Let me ask this.....do you also feel your vote is used if the results vary from what is "needed" by a magazine?   It is manipulated way beyond individual raters....JMO....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2007, 05:57:47 PM »
Forrest, Courses do contact the magazine and they let us know that we would be welcome to call on their course. The reason ? I suspect they are varied like the examples you gave. i.e. changes.

Our assignment at GW is to play the needy courses. So I don't see Mike's point.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brian Cenci

Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2007, 05:59:59 PM »
Forest,
     It honestly doesn't matter if they are published or not.  I think the responsibilty for finding out that a course is newly remodeled falls on the magazine.  For example, Golfweek works on a priority / non-priority system...so if a course was on the non-priority list and was recently remodeled they should be moved to the priority list.

-Brian  

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 07:51:29 PM »
I vote for secrecy with the obvious exception of the few guys who run the ratings.  No comps, no gifts no nothing.  Show up blind, pay your money like every other schmuck and rate the course.  I don't buy that nobody is influenced by free golf.  It human nature to be grateful for gifts.  It really is beyond me how people believe that rankings of anything can have much merit when the rankers are announced and comped.  In any other area the mere suggestion of this would get a good laugh.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2007, 08:16:58 PM »
I don't buy that nobody is influenced by free golf.  It human nature to be grateful for gifts.  
Ciao

Sean, You post alot of good stuff on here. This however was not one of them.

Most of the panelists I know are independant, and, wealthy enough where your accusation is the good laugh.

 Tommy Naccarato would not be influenced by a comped round, even if he was unemployed for the decade prior to playing it.




"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2007, 08:46:27 PM »
I vote for secrecy with the obvious exception of the few guys who run the ratings.  No comps, no gifts no nothing.  Show up blind, pay your money like every other schmuck and rate the course.  I don't buy that nobody is influenced by free golf.  It human nature to be grateful for gifts.  It really is beyond me how people believe that rankings of anything can have much merit when the rankers are announced and comped.  In any other area the mere suggestion of this would get a good laugh.

Ciao

Sean, what you suggest may be seem logical, it just isn't true.  Whether or not I am comp'd makes no difference in my ratings.
The place where your thoughts really break down is that I just can't go to a private club and plunk down my money.  Aronimink has recently finished some extensive work and wants Golf Digest panelists to come.  They need forty, soon to be fifty ratings to be eligible for the top 100.  The only way that is going to happen  is for guys like me to make the trek and play the course.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

wsmorrison

Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2007, 09:43:14 PM »
"Whether or not I am comp'd makes no difference in my ratings."

Tommy, can you say the same about all panelists?  I don't think Sean is accusing the lot of you guys.  But the perks clearly exist and conflicts of interest abound with comps as do abuses.  That too, sadly, is human nature.

I've heard of panelists that played a single course multiple times in a year without paying.  I also know of stories of where golfers pretend to be panelists in order to get free golf.  I say abandon all free golf for raters at private clubs.  If the clubs want them so badly, let them arrange for raters to play with members and charge them the going rate, no discounts.  

Aronimink will do just fine even if it takes time for those 40 or 50 raters to find their way to Newtown Square.  While they're there, they should stop by Cut Above Deli for a sandwich.  I hear if a rater presents a stamped scorecard and his credentials, they only charge a 50% premium.

It isn't like raters are altruists doing the world a service, even though many think they are.   Let the public and resort courses do whatever they want.  But for private golf, panelists should play with a member and pay their way.

Sean, we have this debate all the time with these guys.  Many of them are great guys.  I met Tommy Williamson and he was a delight.  However, I still think the private clubs shouldn't offer any deals to panelists that their members' guests don't have.  Arguing this is a complete waste of time with the majority of panelists.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2007, 09:49:30 PM »
Forrest,

I am in favor of disclosing the panelists, and many if not most actually do.  I think the trend absolutely has to be to the most transparency possible.

The Dallas Morning News panel is actually discussing revealing our votes in the name of transparency. I'm not so sure about that, if only because I don't want to field a dozen phone calls a year asking why I gave Tiddly Links a 8.3 and Waterfalls National a 8.4.  While I like to think I could always defend my vote (I would probably say WN would have gotten a higher rating if the water was turned off that day!) just like in the political elections, I don't think I should have to.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brian Cenci

Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2007, 10:01:50 PM »
I just honestly don't see what the big deal is that everyone is trying to make out of it.  I think most raters take their job serious enough and don't let wether they had to pay or not come into play.  I did probably 15 official ratings this year (where I called ahead and they knew who I was walking in the door) and the course in which I gave the highest rating to this year charged me.

I think making all raters pay will discourage some raters from getting out and making the trek to play the courses.  I think if anything raters should police themselves.  One thing that upset me this year was hearing a story about another rater from another publication that showed up to a course with 5 of his buddies (and had told the pro it would be just him showing up) looking for everything comped....well I love the fact that the pro charged them all!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 10:51:31 PM by Brian Cenci »

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2007, 10:37:16 PM »
It wouldn't make a difference with me. I can't imagine being much influenced by getting solicitations, any more than I'd be by following thru on any of the 30+ solicitations I receive each year by virtue of living in a gated golf community in NC.

I play the new courses and others that I'm assigned, as well as attempt to get to courses that the magazine has requested raters play, try to get to just about all of the other candidate courses in NC at least once every 2-3 years, and then plan one or two away trips to destinations where there are enough candidate courses that I can access within a reasonable drive from one or two base hotels (I use this site more than anything to identify my target courses for my away trips.) And if I can sneak in a course or two during family vacations, all the better.

Not gonna' get into the comp thing other than to say that I appreciate but don't expect it, don't accept anything other than a break on the green fee, rarely bring someone along to play with me but if I do then I expect to pay for that person, and always spend some money in the pro shop.

Andy Troeger

Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2007, 10:54:30 PM »
I've admitted many times on here that I am a GD panelist. If they want to disclose my name they are more than welcome to do so. I would discourage doing a contact list with addresses, phone numbers, etc, but just the names would not affect me much one way or the other.

I would hope panelists are not influenced by comps or service or any outside factors other than the golf course itself. I really believe that a very large majority goes about it the right away.

One thing I always try to do is make it very clear to the course that I am putting effort into the rating of the course and not just out for a fun 18. Despite the recent photo taking thread I find my digital camera is truly valuable to helping me assess things afterward. It is true that pictures do not capture everything, bu they certainly assist my faulty memory with the details of specific holes especially on trips where I may play 5-6 courses.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2007, 11:21:14 PM »
I was discussing rankings, "best news" and the whole nature of magazine rankings with a client who goes through the same system when it comes to ski resorts.

All ski resorts are public.  A panelist cannot call a private club without disclosing that they are a panelist and want to rate the course.

I would have no problem with public courses requiring the usual green fee.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2007, 02:02:32 AM »
I don't buy that nobody is influenced by free golf.  It human nature to be grateful for gifts.  
Ciao

Sean, You post alot of good stuff on here. This however was not one of them.

Most of the panelists I know are independant, and, wealthy enough where your accusation is the good laugh.

 Tommy Naccarato would not be influenced by a comped round, even if he was unemployed for the decade prior to playing it.

Adam

I am not accusing anybody of anything, but your idea of "no influence" wouldn't ring true in any other aspect of life and it doesn't ring true in the area of golf.  People are people no matter what their favourite sport is and golfers don't get a free pass on standards because they are golfers.  I am saying that to have complete integrity, any panel which rates a service or product cannot take kickbacks (free anything) from that organization.  I know that I will always doubt the findings if it isn't made perfectly clear that the raters cannot be influenced by anything except the product they are rating.  Receiving free anything places the system in doubt regardless of individual integrity.

This of course is ideal world stuff.  However, the further removed from the ideal unfortunately means that the odds of breakdowns in the system go up.  The Michelin Guide is the best and most respected guide in the world.  It sets the standard and because the standard is so high the guide book is has an exceptionally integrity.  

I have always thought that if the ranking system was any good, then its worth money.  In general, I would much rather see a book every 4 years or something like this.  Drastically reduce the number of panelists and follow the Michelin system.  If the product is good, people will be happy to pay for it.  In essence, all of the current systems are broke and need a serious rethinking of how to fix them.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 02:05:03 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2007, 02:35:12 AM »
Sean, what is the policy of the Michelin system towards disclosure/non-disclosure of the evaluators' names?

I think this discussion thread is confusing two different sorts of disclosure. At Golfweek, panelist are certainly free to announce themselves when they inquire about play. Just as they are free, as some have here, to announce their status as raters with a particular magazine. Many do precisely that when they make advance plans to play/rate a course, but I also know that many play private (and public) courses without announcing themselves and access the course as a guest of a member or even as fee payers. I'm not naive enough to believe this is the majority of cases. But at more clubs than most of you can imagine, where they couldn't care less about raters (Winged Foot, Cypress, Friars Head) the only way to get on is to play as a member's guest.

The other aspect of disclosure/non-disclosure is what we at the magazine do. I know Golf Magazine has published the list of their raters. At Golfweek, we guarantee anonymity on our part -- leaving it free for raters to reveal themselves if they want. The reason for this is simple. We don't want our 450 raters to get deluged with direct solicitations, phone calls, emails, offers of free shirts and rooms by courses and their p.r. agents looking for visits and votes.

We are very strict about non-disclosure. We get requests all of the time from clubs, management companies, etc. for the list. My own book publisher tried getting the list from me to promote my Donald Ross book and couldn't get it. That's also why, when sending out email blasts, we put all of the names on the "BCC" bar (not the "Send To" or "CC" bar) so raters can't get them and laterally pass them on.

I don't mean the system is perfect. Self-policing by raters is a start but it's no way enough. We have rigid rules about participation, ethics, not asking to bring a foursome, etc., and I don't hesitate to enforce them. In one legendary case, a rater whom I heared had made very liberal use of access to one course that offered it to him was terminated as soon as we heard about it. If anything, we've been accused of being over-zealous in such matters, which is fine with me. Still, the infractions are minor because the people selected are pretty sensible, the rules are clear and the enforcement as diligent as feasible. But disclosing their names up front isn't going to make the system better.

Finally, I love Mike Young's characteristic paranoia about magazines selectively including/excluding votes depending upon their whims and preferences. I can't speak for how the other magazine do things, but I have no time or inclination to even look at what a rater votes on at an individual course. And given the electronic/intranet ballot we have no choice but to accept it as is anyway.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 07:23:50 AM by Brad Klein »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Disclose the Identities of Panelists ???
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2007, 03:09:23 AM »
Brad

So far as I know, the raters are unknown, visit restaurants un-announced, use unqualified criteria or at least secret criteria (an aspect I really like because it means that a tick box system won't do and restaurants can't taylor a menu around any Michelin system) and pay the bill.  IMO, these are all good aspects of their system and they help to ensure integrity.  I also like that Michelin only rate the very best and there is no set number.  The knife & fork deal is pretty cool too because it highlights possible future candidates for stars or just misses.

Ciao

Would it be possible to produce a book/pamphlet type deal every so many years which the customer has to pay for?  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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