[JMorgan]

What are the perks and pitfalls of golf course construction along or near a river?  

How does the river and the landforms associated with it affect routing?

Are there any similarities between linksland and land bordering a river?

Are there any unique maintenance challenges during the development and maturity of the course?

Is it easier to grow and maintain turf on these sites than other locations?  

Does the site require more or less earthmoving than an inland or linksland site?

Is it easier or more difficult to work the land than an inland or linksland site?

What notable courses are built along a river?  Do they exhibit any special characteristics?

Are there any golden age or modern courses that were built on a flood plain?

Is it more difficult to create interesting/quirky/sporty holes on a riverside location?

[paul cowley]

What are the perks and pitfalls of golf course construction along or near a river?  

How does the river and the landforms associated with it affect routing?

Are there any similarities between linksland and land bordering a river?

Are there any unique maintenance challenges during the development and maturity of the course?

Is it easier to grow and maintain turf on these sites than other locations?  

Does the site require more or less earthmoving than an inland or linksland site?

Is it easier or more difficult to work the land than an inland or linksland site?

James....I will generalize and say that for the most part building or maintaining a golf course along a river is not any more or less difficult than building a golf course in the other locales you describe....maybe a few more environmental regs, but these are best avoided by avoiding any impacts, IE...stay away from any wetland disturbance.

My question for you has to do with that red creature below your name and what does he represent?

[JMorgan]

James....I will generalize and say that for the most part building or maintaining a golf course along a river is not any more or less difficult than building a golf course in the other locales you describe....maybe a few more environmental regs, but these are best avoided by avoiding any impacts, IE...stay away from any wetland disturbance.

My question for you has to do with that red creature below your name and what does he represent?

Paul, all of a sudden he came crashing through the wall this morning while I was reading a couple of gca threads.   Freaked out the kids, so I imagine we won't be watching the Thanksgiving Day parade.

Not even soil differences?  Like more humus and bioplex?  

I added a few more questions.  


 

   
   

[Mike_Young]

James,
agree with Paul.....but taking it a step further....odds are you will be in floodplain and if so you have to equal out your cut and fill....there will probably be a set back from top of bank that cannot be disturbed....you will need to apply for crossing permits if any crossings.....many times you will be asked to drain holes away from the river and collect before allowing a pipe to go back to the river.....knowing that there will be floods......you will need to calculate elevation that keeps tees and greens above most flooding.....good thing about next to river is .....land is usually free in some fashion.....and course is an easy walk.....and many times is a very good sandy soil.....just turkey thoughts.....

[JMorgan]

Thanks, Mike... a lot of great info packed into your reply, and made me think of another question regarding interest.  

Also I did not realize you need crossing permits.  Is that a complicated process?  What is logic behind regulating a crossing?  

I also wonder how the entire permitting process on a riverside site would differ outside the US.  

[Mike_Young]

JAMES,
The crossing permits take into account how far back the headwalls and pilings have to be located....whether they will allow pilings in the river.....or does it need to be a clearspan......how wide aand how much weight will be required.....how high is enough above mean waterlevel.....and rivers are state waterways and are treated as a wetland.....thus you are crossing a wetland.....
OUTSiDE THE US....I see it vary......some countries like costa rica are much more difficult than here others could care less......

[Phil_the_Author]

James,

You asked, "What notable courses are built along a river?"

Though I don't remember you saying you were going to stop in there, wouldn't you have recently passed by one on your tour of PA. courses?  Of course I refer to Tilly's first at Shawnee.

Built primarily on a small island between the Delaware River and one of it's Binniekills, it was flooded out by a storm during construction and miraculously had clean white sand deposited in all of the bunkers, something Tilly himself wrote about in amazement, and has been flooded out and rebuilt several times over the years. It occurred once again just last year (?) and they are now giving strong consideration to not only rebuild it but to remove the changes when they added an extra 9 holes and totally restore it back to Tilly's original 18!

"Do they exhibit any special characteristics?"

Other than being flodded out on occasion, they are quite site specific. As an example, consider an answer to your next question.

"Are there any golden age or modern courses that were built on a flood plain?"

Go read Tilly's article from Golf Illustrated in the November 1934 issue (in Gleanings from the Wayside). It is titled, "And They Built A Course By The Trinity River."

This is talking about the great course in Dallas, Brook Hollow.

Building by rivers has been done more often than you might think...

[David Stamm]

Philip, don't forget that "other" course on the Trinity. It's a good one as well.

[Sam Morrow]

It's funny that Brook Hollow is mentioned, it's probably atleast a mile or so from the river. I don't know if the river was re-routed south during the construction of I-35 but it's really not very close to the golf course. Certainly nothing like Colonial which of course has the 5th as the best example being right on the river. I know that they rebuilt 8 years ago for the river but I would love to see a picture or description of the old 8th.

[mike_beene]

Sam,the river has moved.It came about ,I believe ,when Dallas built the levees so that the annual spring floods were contained.You can still see a piece of the old channel which is north of #8 and maybe across that road.It disappears under the levee.My uncle said he used to swim in the river at Brook Hollow.I am curious about where the original river went.Was it west of the course by the maintainance shed?Was there ever a water channel in the low part in front of 6 ,9 or 18?My uncle is deceased so that source is unavailable.

[Mike Hendren]

Art Hills' River Islands course in Kodak, Tennessee plays across two islands in the French Broad River.  

Perhaps someone can post the google aerial map.

Mike

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,the river has moved.It came about ,I believe ,when Dallas built the levees so that the annual spring floods were contained.You can still see a piece of the old channel which is north of #8 and maybe across that road.It disappears under the levee.My uncle said he used to swim in the river at Brook Hollow.I am curious about where the original river went.Was it west of the course by the maintainance shed?Was there ever a water channel in the low part in front of 6 ,9 or 18?My uncle is deceased so that source is unavailable.

After seeing this topic the other day I asked my Dad who grew up in Oak Cliff and he's heard stories that they did move the river to the south. He also guessed it was originally around where 35 is now. I think it probably was down to the west because when you drive down Regal Row there is an office building right before Stemmons where the road really seems to drop-off. I would guess this is where the river once was. Again though it's all just guessing on my part.

[Sam Morrow]

In this home course story written by Eric Dorsey it mentions the course being on one of the forks of the Trinity, I am still doing research to find a major river moving project.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcorsey.html

[Bill_McBride]

A course that has been mentioned here and crosses a river at least twice is very appealing to me - Milwaukee Country Club.  I'd love to see that one of these days.

[Jason McNamara]

Anyone one have a decent aerial of King James VI?  The Google Earth res doesn't cut it.

There's an overhead of Ilkley available at
http://www.uk-golfguide.com/england/25870.html - see also
http://www.ilkleygolfclub.co.uk/course/ilkleygolfcourse.html

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Golden age courses might include Banff Springs, Royal Mid-Surrey, Reddish Vale, Sale, Northenden, Didsbury, Chorlton, Bovey Castle (ex-Manor House Hotel), Hermitage, not to mention Carnoustie.

[Bill_McBride]

Mark, do you think you could find stately Brocket Hall on Google Earth and post that aerial?  There's a course designed by Peter Allis just NW of London outside the M25 that crosses a pretty broad river at least 4 times.   It features intersecting long par 4s (#4 and #16) which was a first for me.  You also use a self-propelled ferry to cross the river 3x as I recall.

[Jason McNamara]

Bill -

Here's a Google Maps shot that everyone can resize/reposition.

http://tinyurl.com/2tw8vv

For those not familiar with the course, the 18th on the Melbourne course is at left-center (SW of the river, except for the green).

Below the bridge (roughly center) are the 16th and 4th greens.  Both greens are on the opposite side of the river from their respective fairways.  (see http://www.brocket-hall.co.uk/golf-club/courses-map.html )

[Bill_McBride]

Bill -

Here's a Google Maps shot that everyone can resize/reposition.

http://tinyurl.com/2tw8vv

For those not familiar with the course, the 18th on the Melbourne course is at left-center (SW of the river, except for the green).

Below the bridge (roughly center) are the 16th and 4th greens.  Both greens are on the opposite side of the river from their respective fairways.  (see http://www.brocket-hall.co.uk/golf-club/courses-map.html )

That's the one!

[Marty Bonnar]

Uncle Bill,
do a Google search on 'Charlie Brocket' and learn MUCH about how to squander family fortunes, how to disassemble classic Ferraris, how to attempt to defraud the insurance companies of the UK and how to survive life in prison as an aristo.

You honestly couldn't write this stuff....

Funnily enough, he's actually a terribly endearing, loveable chap! Clearly never played enough golf to learn decency.

ever,
neffers Marty.

[Bill_McBride]

So that was old Charlie's stately manse?  It is a beautiful place.  When it was built, the instructions to Peter Allis were that no one could be able to see the golf course from inside the manor house.  So all the bunkers are subtly aligned so that all you can see from inside is grass, grass and more grass.  I wonder how they made the flags and flagsticks disappear?!  ??

Here's the Wikipedia on Lord Brocket - with apologies for the OT stuff.....

"Charles Ronald George Nall-Cain, 3rd Baron Brocket (born 12 February 1952), also known as Charlie Brocket, is a peer and television presenter in the United Kingdom.

An Old Etonian, Brocket served in the King's Hussars as a Lieutenant. Brocket became known as a playboy, and collected classic cars, once owning forty-two Ferraris. With the collapse of the classic car market in the mid 1990s, his vehicles were losing money, and he tried to offload them quickly. He became famous after being jailed for conspiracy to commit car insurance fraud in 1996, having dismantled and hidden four of the Ferraris, claiming them to be stolen. Whilst in prison he was stabbed before being moved to Ford Open Prison. In 2004 he was a contestant on the third series of I'm a Celebrity... Get Me Out of Here!. Finishing in fourth place, his new found fame made him a popular TV celebrity, making almost £1 million in offers. His autobiography, Call Me Charlie, was published in hardback in September, coming in the Top 10 Best Sellers list of 2004. He hosted the ITV1 game show Scream! If You Want to Get Off and presented Privates Exposed, a behind the scenes programme for ITV1's Bad Lads Army, on ITV2.

Brocket's parents were Ronald Nall-Cain and Elizabeth Trotter. His father died when Brocket was nine years old. The title of Baron Brocket passed to him at 25 on the death of his grandfather, Arthur Nall-Cain, 2nd Baron Brocket, at which point he inherited Brocket Hall, which was in a bad state of repair. He converted his home into a hotel and conference venue. Today he still owns the hall in Hertfordshire through a trust which leases it to a German consortium. The lease expires after fifty years.

Brocket married, firstly, former Vogue model Isabell Maria Lorenzo in 1982 and divorced in 1994. They have three children: Alex Nall-Cain, Antalya and William. He married, secondly, Harriet Warren on 24 June 2006.

Currently working on Brit Flick "Clubbing to Death" with Nick Moran, Huey Morgan & Dave Courtney, in which he plays a police officer. Due for release in 2007"

What a guy!
 

[JMorgan]

James,

You asked, "What notable courses are built along a river?"

Though I don't remember you saying you were going to stop in there, wouldn't you have recently passed by one on your tour of PA. courses?  Of course I refer to Tilly's first at Shawnee.

Built primarily on a small island between the Delaware River and one of it's Binniekills, it was flooded out by a storm during construction and miraculously had clean white sand deposited in all of the bunkers, something Tilly himself wrote about in amazement, and has been flooded out and rebuilt several times over the years. It occurred once again just last year (?) and they are now giving strong consideration to not only rebuild it but to remove the changes when they added an extra 9 holes and totally restore it back to Tilly's original 18!

Phil,

Shawnee was one course that immediately came to mind ... it's the last stop on that rota, and I've been meaning to ask you about any rebuild plans and educate myself a bit more before I stopped in.  

How likely is it that they'll restore it?  

Since Tilly tinkered with the course quite a bit before the major overhaul, have they decided upon a particular version?  Would they keep 16 intact?

The new Tillie Approach course is set to open next spring.

[JMorgan]

Golden age courses might include Banff Springs, Royal Mid-Surrey, Reddish Vale, Sale, Northenden, Didsbury, Chorlton, Bovey Castle (ex-Manor House Hotel), Hermitage, not to mention Carnoustie.

Mark,
On which routing did Colt cross the river six times?  

[Marty Bonnar]

Anyone one have a decent aerial of King James VI?  The Google Earth res doesn't cut it.

Jason,
the Club website uses Microsoft Virtual Earth which has better resolution of this part of Scotland:

A Golf Course IN a River...

http://www.kingjamesvi.com/directions.cfm

cheers,
FBD.

[J_ Crisham]

Champions Golf Club in Houston makes good use of a river on a par 3 and a par 5. I forget which holes they were maybe the 4th and the 11th? Also Milwaukee CC uses a river for a few of it's better holes.

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