[Mike Mosely]

If we put aside the "major championship venue" mantle just for the sake of this discussion, is it possible that The Knoll Club is just as good a course for public NYC golfers as Bethpage Black?

The first hole at Knoll is a great "Road Hole" and has fascinating contours internally on the green.  The double plateau at 2 is beautiful and with a new tee being built at around 460 that hole will be a bear!

The redan features a brutal bunker perhaps 12 feet (or more) below the putting surface.  The contours on the fourth green feature a hog's back and several swerves in many directions.  

Looking at the rest of the course, there's a gorgeous short, a long and difficult biarritz, a bottle hole, a punchbowl, an eden and finally at 18, a "two-shot" redan.

It's inexpensive, it's right outside NYC, its a great design...what's not to love if you live in NYC?  Is it the best kept secret in the area?

[Ted Kramer]

Sorry to be such a bozo . . .
public or private?

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

There's no doubt about the inherent design pedigree Knoll / West possesses.

Banks did a superlative job and the involvement of George Bahto can make a huge difference PROVIDED ...

The powers-that-be try to realize what type of potential is indeed present. For too long the progress made at the course has crept along at a tortoise-like pace.

The issue becomes one of staying the course and applying the necessary dollars in order to accomplish the task at-hand.

BB benefited in having major proponents from a range of different positions. There was also the contributions made -- namely the dollars from the USGA.

The Knoll / West can be so much more and if all the key parties maintain the focus and resolve it is entirely possible this grand lady will indeed return to past glory.

We shall see ...

[Mike Mosely]

Dear ted - its public!

[Ted Kramer]

Dear ted - its public!

I'm in the process of moving to North Jersey.
Any interest in getting together for a round out there??

-Ted

[Mike Sweeney]

No The Knoll is not BB good, but it could sit somewhere between The Red and The Black which is pretty good space similar to Montauk.

One it does not have the rolling land or sandy soil that BB has, and two as a public course, it has the same problem as Cobbs Creek. It is a singular public course (please don't anyone mention Karakung next to Cobbs), so it has to serve a diverse clientel.

BB is surrounded by four other good to very good courses that can serve the bulk of the golfing population, so it can afford to stand out ignore the masses and be great.

All of that said, when George Bahto gets to a certain point with his work at The Knoll, a GCA outing on a MacRaynorBanksBahto course is a must but I know he is not ready for us yet.

[Tom Dunne]

I haven't seen it yet, but I like being described as a "denizen."  

Mike, you think it's better than BP Red? That's definitely solid praise...

[Mike Sweeney]

Dear ted - its public!

I'm in the process of moving to North Jersey.
Any interest in getting together for a round out there??

-Ted

Ted,

It is really a semi-private and you should put your name on the waiting list which cost nothing and then you have a chance of playing on weekends. Right now non-member times happen mainly during the week, late in the day and off-season.

When you get settled in NNJ, let me know and maybe we can catch a warm day.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, you think it's better than BP Red? That's definitely solid praise...

Not today as The Red is in awesome shape, but could be and remember I drink the Raynor/Banks juice.  

[Mike Mosely]

I was really impressed when I saw the Knoll/West (thanks for that Matt!...more than the Red.

I think the greens - from 1-18 are better than the greens 1-18 at the Black.  I  know that sounds like alot, but those that have played there may agree that in SOME places on the black, they are relatively flat, but at The Knoll, you have your work cut out for you just to two putt and unless you really stick your approach, a one putt is a longshot.  And forget about having straight putts.

Yes, I know that having all the other courses is a plus for the Bethpage complex...I'm merely asking from a one-on-one standpoint Black vs. Knoll.

It would be nice to meet everybody at an outing at the Knoll, that sounds splendid.

Tom, wouldn't you actually be a "Dunnezen?"

[Matt_Ward]

The thing about Knoll / West is that the starting trio of holes is awesome stuff indeed.

Ditto the closing hole with its menacing front bunker !

The elements are indeed present and having G. Bahto on-hand is a major plus.

However ...

If I had a dollar for all the possible improvement projects that should have / could have been done I'd be driving an Italian sportscar.

I do wish all the folks involved the best -- Knoll / West if tweaked to keep what Banks provided and to reflect today's game could easily be within the top five in NJ public and be worthy of a visit by any architectural junkie.

[Mike Mosely]

Ted, (and anyone else), sure, if you wanna get together for a round in the spring, absolutely!

Matt, what do you think about the biarritz?  What do you think, in general, about the debate of "should the swale be PART of the green or the run-up?" (I know some architects are putting the swale in the green instead of just the run-up).

[Bill Brightly]

Dear ted - its public!

It's actually town owned...I wonder if that is worse than being public?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I've had discussions in the past w George Bahto regarding the par-3 13th and it would be wonderful if the green were extended all the way to the front.

Will that ever happen?

Hard to say but the real issue is the glacial pace for improvements at the course. Frankly, if the commitment / dollars aren't there then all you will get is a minor tweak here and minor tweak there.

The Knoll / West, as I and others have lamented, has plenty of potential but that word is both a blessing and curse !

[Mike Mosely]

I rather liked the "tweaks" that I saw.  As for glacial pace, aren't there alot of factors that go into getting money for restoration work.  I think we should hail the changes that were made...isn't that a good harbinger that more will  be done?

[George_Bahto]

Matt: the work is moving at a fast pace and I'm getting just about all I want (albeit slow).

Greenside bunkers are done - all steep and deep as original.

I'm restoring fairway bunkers as we speak (even though it's dark out right now  ) - nine are done and sodded and since it is beyond the normal playing season, I have 15 or so more in various stages of reconstruction.

If the weather holds I might get it all done by frost.

Next year new back tees on a number of holes and I'll have the course up to about 7,000-yards (par-70). The course is difficult to score on even at 6,500-yards as those who have played it will attest.

(I'm gunna blow you away when I'm done, Matt!!!!)

Better than the Black?  when done, I don’t' think it will be anywhere near as hard, for sure .......... but  .......   WE GOT GREENS

I can't get the members to even play the blue tees ..... they'll never play the new back tees unless club championship time!!     pooooossies   (or is that woooooosies?)

[Mike Mosely]

Hey George, thanks for joining in.

Yes, you do have greeeeeeeeeeeeens!!!  Holy smokes, have you got greens.

I think you may be as hard as the black...from the back tees...the blacks strength is derived a goodly amount from length...at Knoll its derived from a great number of factors...more diverse factors...greens, bunkers, angles of attack.  You can take a breather on many greens at the black, but you have to watch what your doing at all times at the Knoll...one mistake, one careless putt or chip and wham!  You're further away form the hole than when you started.

[George_Bahto]

Mike: the new proposed tees:

2 - 4 - 5 - 8 - 9 on the front

11 -14 - 15 (by 40-yards) - 16 - 18 to about 475 (par-4)

holes 2 - 8 - 9 - 14 and 18 tough 4's now

[Mike Mosely]

so how long will it play from the tips?  How about from the regulation boxes?

[George_Bahto]

well I want to move the "plates" to about 6,700 (get it re-rated) and the new tees will play to the magic number of a little over 7,000

I've just changed some of the mowing patterns that have "drifted" over the years and have expanded many of the collars in anticipation of full green expansion (can't have them think of too many things at one you know  )

[Jay Flemma]

I just wanted to join in and say that I was totally floored when I saw this course.  I totally agree with you guys that I think it'll give the Black a run for its money as the course of choice for new york city and northern jersey folks.  George, that was one of the most amazing things I have seen, how holes 4 and 18 moved sideways over time.  Thanks for all your hard work and dedication.

Hey George, if you were to pick another designer to learn about and do restorations, who would be next?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Matt Ward & Mike Sweeney,

There's not a doubt in my mind that the greens at The Knoll are far superior to the greens at BPB.

Mike,

# 1 is a "Valley" hole, not a "Road" hole

[George_Bahto]

Jay: Wouldn't it be interesting to come back 100 years from now and see what happened (hopefully nothing) to the great courses our so talented architects of today are and have been building?

 .......  let's hope future clubs and committees learn from the past and there would be no need to restore any of their works - especially their textbook works

Jay, I'm still trying to figure out these guys

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Matt Ward & Mike Sweeney,

There's not a doubt in my mind that the greens at The Knoll are far superior to the greens at BPB.

Mike,

# 1 is a "Valley" hole, not a "Road" hole

Pat-

But, it features a Road green, no?  

[Jay Flemma]

Jay: Wouldn't it be interesting to come back 100 years from now and see what happened (hopefully nothing) to the great courses our so talented architects of today are and have been building?

 .......  let's hope future clubs and committees learn from the past and there would be no need to restore any of their works - especially their textbook works

Jay, I'm still trying to figure out these guys

You sound like Jerry Garcia when he said "eventually if keep at this guitar thing, I might get good."

I would be afraid to see what might happen...but there is a nugget of hope...back before the Internet and digi photos, it was murder to try to see what the course looked like much earlier...but now our archiving is light years better...there is hope!

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