[Bryan Izatt]

Below is an aerial of a piece of land that is to be developed as a golf course.  Anyone want to try to do a routing for it.  We can compare the plans to what actually gets on the ground next summer.

The property is flat with the exception of the southeast corner that has a small hill on it.  The land is generally low lying marshy land so drainage will likely be a consideration.  The property lines are marked in white.

Room must be left for a clubhouse.  Entrance will be from the road on the east side

The course will be the third at a mid-level public club that targets mid-priced corporate tournaments and banquets for most of the season.




Anyone want to have a go?  Just a line routing showing tees, turning points, green locations and major architectural features.

 

[Jason Topp]

Thanks Bryan.  I'll mess with it a bit even though I have no idea how to account for drainage.

Which direction is the prevailing wind and how strong is it?

Any preferred clubhouse location?

Any other relevant restrictions?

[Jim Thompson]

Just a few questions:

1- Is there a need for a grounds equipment facility / storage building.

2- Is the pond an end point for the water flow from the creek or is it dammed?

3-  Is there a connection point to access a drainage sytem on the course to the west or south? Does the west or south golf also have a drainage issue?

4-  Given the swampy nature is the top soil also heavy external of the swampy area?

Thanks!

JT

[Garland Bayley]

Are the yellow lines supposed to be topo lines? If so, they don't make sense.

[RJ_Daley]

Bryan, can you give us the exact location.  We could get a topo and see the surrounding nature of the area on:
 
http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/

[Bryan Izatt]

Jason:

Which direction is the prevailing wind and how strong is it?

There are no prevailing winds.  East is least common and north-west to south-west would be the most common.

Any preferred clubhouse location?

Not that I know of.

Any other relevant restrictions?

Only one I can think of is that you can't go into the trees on the north side of the property.

Jim,

1- Is there a need for a grounds equipment facility / storage building.

I don't think so.  The white bulding at the bottom centre serves the existing two courses, so I imagine it could serve the third as well.

2- Is the pond an end point for the water flow from the creek or is it dammed?

I believe it drains to a canal that you can see in the north-west corner of the aerial - the sort of greenish ribbon.  Not a lot of slope though.

3-  Is there a connection point to access a drainage sytem on the course to the west or south? Does the west or south golf also have a drainage issue?

There is a course to the west that is on the same level as this property.  No natural drainage there.  All of the property is in a broad flat valley.  The other course is to the south and the property is maybe 30 feet higher there. South of that course the land rise up maybe 100 feet to a moraine.

4-  Given the swampy nature is the top soil also heavy external of the swampy area?

The area is generally one of the richest market gardening areas in the country.  The soil is rich loam, I believe.

Garland, Dick,

The topo lines are my (apparently failed) attempt to show higher land in that quadrant.  The section inside the 20 ft circle is higher than the surrounding area.  

The property is located not far from Newmarket, ON.  Dick, from a quick check, the site you provided appeared to only be in the USA.

[Bill Brightly]

Wayne Morrison,

I see where the Redan goes. Do you want to put the Eden in front of the lake or should we use the stream? I have a good spot for our Short Hole, But I just can't seem to figuure out wher to jam in the Biarritz? Any thoughts?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Is this your project?

Who is the architect?

Maybe someone can guess the routing based on the architect....

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

If you can't find a natural setting for some of the templates, make certain that you build it, no matter how high it pops out of the ground.  And remember, no self-respecting Biarritz has a swale less than 6 feet deep and the front is fairway only---none of this neo-design changes that has the whole thing green.  If you can't find a spot for it, blow up that course to the south and put one in there.  Also, no Short hole is any good unless it has a perfectly symmetrical horeshoe swale in the middle; naturalism be damned.  And for Gosh sakes, make sure you cannot putt onto the Eden green, that would be a horrible mistake.  If you have to put a pond there, do it man.  

The first priority in golf design is to make sure you have familiar holes that you have polled to be sure they are what the customers want.  Don't ever rely on your own imagination and talent, that's for sure.  Follow, be sure to never lead and never evolve.  If you've got a good thing going, keep going with it  

[Bill Brightly]

OK, fine. If we can't agree on a full Biarritz or not, we won't build a MacRaynor.

So let's get a crop duster, scatter some grass seed from the air and wait a few years. The site is too beautiful to move any dirt. No way we can dare force our will upon the land. We need to let nature take its course. I am now a minimalist, too!

[Dan Kelly]

I'm sure the wannabe architects (I'm not one) could come up
with some interesting ideas -- but personally, I'd love to see
what the pros here would suggest, based on the information
we have.

[Paul Stephenson]

Will the clubhouse just be serving the new course, or are they keeping the original clubhouse and its ski-slope roof for the east and west courses?

[George Pazin]

Kind of a tight squeeze for 18, no?

[TEPaul]

"Below is an aerial of a piece of land that is to be developed as a golf course.  Anyone want to try to do a routing for it."

Not me. I don't care if the land is dead flat, I'd never want to try to do a routing from a thousand feet or more above the property. Put me on the ground at a golfer's eye view and I'd try it any time.

And I do believe that one can never fully understand golf course architecture until they trying doing a few complete routings.

[Jason McNamara]

Kind of a tight squeeze for 18, no?

Looks like about 140 acres total, once you subtract the lake.

[Michael Dugger]

It's very doable, fellas, Merion's on 110.

[Brian Noser]

Ok, I am kind of embarrassed it is very rough and I ran out of room on the back. I think my scale is off, I was just guessing. go easy on me this is my first attempt ever at anything like this. I cam up with a par 69/68 I think not sure on the yardages. It is just the routing not many details around greens some holes I could not think of a green right away. Take it easy on me and feel free to ask any questions. 1 starts up in the top corner. They are numbered with Par not the hole number.

here goes nothing...

[Brian Laurent]

I'm in the same boat as the other Brian...besides wasting time in high shcool, first attempt at something like this.  Had a hell of a lot of fun working on it, though!

(just ignore the line between 14 & 15)

[Mike_Young]

I'm sure the wannabe architects (I'm not one) could come up
with some interesting ideas -- but personally, I'd love to see
what the pros here would suggest, based on the information
we have.

I don't think a pro could route anything with the info that has been given....IMHO

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill, Wayne,

Now, now gentlemen, templates are the last resort of the unimaginative.  (except when it's CBM or Doak)

Mike N,

No it's not my project.  I'm definitely an amateur, but interested bystander.  My feeling is that it's a lot harder to do even a high level routing than most of us amateurs understand.  My contact in the club can never remember the name of the architect when I ask him, but I believe it is someone local and probably not high profile.  Do you think architects have regular thumbprints on their routings for their courses?

Paul,

The old clubhouse stays.  The new one serves the new course.  All the better to serve multiple tournaments every day.  Besides, as you obviously know, the old clubhouse is not so old and is still pretty nice for functions.  

George,

I played another course today that was built on a similar footprint at 6400 yards and included a fairly sizeable practice range, so it is feasible.  Perhaps this property would lend itself to a par 70 layout.

TEP,

I could give you some ground level pics but they would show nothing.  It's that flat.  Think Talking Stick North.  I wonder how much time C&C wandered that property looking for natural features.  If you'd like to visit the beautiful late fall GTA area, I'm sure the two of us could hop the fence and wander the muck if you think that'd help.  

Mike Y,

Since you're one of the pros, what more info would you want (apart from the obvious - to walk the land, soil tests, etc.).  Are there other things you do before trying to do a first routing exercise for a property?

Brian and Brian,

Thanks for sticking your necks out.  I wouldn't criticize either effort.  A couple of thoughts.  The scale on the width of the fairways makes it appear more crowded that it probably will be.  The size of the property probably won't support wide strategic fairways on every hole.  Neither of you incorporated any further ponding for irrigation.  I also think that the property, being low lying, might benefit from using dirt from building ponds to raise and shape fairways and green complexes.  It also struck me that the boundary line on the west side might have fit a Hogan's Alley type of hole along the boundary.

[Brian Noser]

Yes I knew my scale was way off for width and probally lenght. sorry rookie mistake  ..  I think we both got a few good holes. Bryan feel free to critique on me if you want to, other then what the hell were you thinking I dont know what else you can say. I was thinking on the southern most hole a nice litte road hole with a path in back of the green, that one it is one of my favorites and my other one is the one in the middle with the tees on the fingers of the lake I figured the scramblers would like that one. Thanks for posting this I will stick to my day job.

[Michael Dugger]

My entry.....

My routing evokes memories of Muirfield with two loops of nine holes, one wrapping around the exterior of the property and one on the interior.

We have a quick getaway with two par 5's within the first three holes.  We finish with a reachable par 5 18th to allow a thrilling birdie to leave a good taste in your mouth.

Something unique about my routing is you could choose to change the order you play the holes, combining the first five of the front with the last four of the back to create a different experience.  The only drawback is one of the nines would not have a par 5 and the other would have three. This would have the golfer playing two different sides of the property as opposed to the inside/outside thing.

My routing has dog legs bending left and right.  It has a short par 4.  Each of the par 3's plays a different direction.  I put the clubhouse on the hill for views.  The meandering creek is utilized as a cross hazard on a couple of drives.  I have flexibility in the par 4's and par 5's.  The routing could very easily be tweaked to make a long 4, like the 16th, into a short 5, etc.....

I didn't leave room for a range but we should have enough room up top to put a clubhouse, maintenance shed parking lot and practice green.

What do ya think?

[RJ_Daley]

http://themnrstore.mnr.gov.on.ca/english/map.asp?tid=0&zoom=5&map=1017615048750&DisplayImage=True

Not that this helps much, but it is the best I could do for getting you a vague topo map.  On problem is that the mapping seervice cuts the available map right through the property line.  If you look on the left hand margin and find the 80* line, you will see that the far left road makes a peak up to the 90* line.  The land is within the area left of the road between 70 and 80*, where 80 is about where Mike Dugger's 8th LZ from that green is located.  But, some of the land is on the adjoining map.  It is still hard to read the contour elevation lines...

[Dan Kelly]

I'm sure the wannabe architects (I'm not one) could come up
with some interesting ideas -- but personally, I'd love to see
what the pros here would suggest, based on the information
we have.

I don't think a pro could route anything with the info that has been given....IMHO

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know.

[RJ_Daley]

No offense meant Brian L., but I think skanky hooks by right handed or slices by left handed on 18 tee would be slaughtering folks on the tees of 16 and 15 green.  

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