[Norbert P]

  I always look forward to short par 4 golf holes. A chance to par! A freak eagle! Perhaps an intricate display of strategy is waiting ahead.
  I've facetiously raved about a personal favorite golf course of mine for years that has 3 short par 4's on a track of 9 - all fun but not exactly worthy of calling Don King to promote a challenge to Fernandina Beach GC. Each of the Short 4 holes allow a driver but using them on two of 'em won't get you any heroes. Big hitters can actually reach a 4th par 4 as well. That's all of the par 4s.

 My questions are . . .

  How many short 4's in 18 is too many?
  Does a par 4 that takes the driver out of your hands annoy you?
  Does a short 4 have to be reachable by driver to be interesting?
  Does risk have to be high to make using the driver interesting?
 
  (Modified question)
 What features make Short 4's respectable?

     

[Tim Gavrich]

My best crack at a set of answers:

- Four would start to be pushing it, but if it were offset by a lack of reachable par 5s, I might allow it.
- No, Mongo no like caveman golf.
- No, little pitch shots with wedges are oodles of fun
- Not really high, but it shouldn't be easy.
- If they're good, sure.  Gotta work with what you've got.

I love short par 4s because they are the ultimate temptations.  You know the architect's done his/her job when you stand on the tee saying to yourself, "I really shouldn't hit driver here, but gosh darn it all, I've gotta try it."  That is precisely what makes the 15th at TPC at River Highlands an absolutely fantastic golf hole.  It's reachable by a great many, and yet more often than not the player walks off the tee wondering why he had to go looking for trouble around the green when it would've been less of a headache to lay up 60-80 yards short.

[Doug Siebert]

  How many short 4's in 18 is too many?
If by "short" you mean "driveable", I think 3 is really pushing it, 4 is definitely too many (however I excuse TOC for having 4 because its TOC)  Otherwise I wouldn't put limits on the number of short 4s, but rather a minimum on the number of long 4s at 2 with 3 being highly desireable.

  Does a par 4 that takes the driver out of your hands annoy you?
As long as each is balanced out by one driveable par 4 where hitting driver is a decision a reasonably rational person, or even me, might make, no worries.

  Does a short 4 have to be reachable by driver to be interesting?
No, sometimes the decision of whether to get up there close with a driver or lay back to 100 or 150 yards is every bit as interesting as trying to bust one on there....it isn't as though actually driving the ball onto the putting surface happens all that often versus the number of attempts made anyway!

  Does risk have to be high to make using the driver interesting?
There needs to be some risk, some reason why someone might contemplate laying up, otherwise what would Shivas have to argue with Moriarty about?

  Do you respect short 4's even though you know that it is there because it is all that safety and the land will allow?
This sounds like a trick question!  Such holes are sometimes necessary, but one of the things I believe a great architect should bring to such a situation is the ability to turn that ugly necessity into a great or at least not bad hole.

[Tom_Doak]

I guess 18 would be too many on the grounds of variety.

Pine Valley has four.
Royal Melbourne has four.
Crystal Downs has four (or five if you're counting anything under 400 yards).
Cypress Point has four.
The Old Course at St. Andrews has eight of them [3, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 16 and 18] and it is not too many.

[Chris Kane]

Elie is full of them, and its one of the most enjoyable courses you'll find.

[Sean_A]

 I always look forward to short par 4 golf holes. A chance to par! A freak eagle! Perhaps an intricate display of strategy is waiting ahead.
  I've facetiously raved about a personal favorite golf course of mine for years that has 3 short par 4's on a track of 9 - all fun but not exactly worthy of calling Don King to promote a challenge to Fernandina Beach GC. Each of the Short 4 holes allow a driver but using them on two of 'em won't get you any heroes. Big hitters can actually reach a 4th par 4 as well. That's all of the par 4s.

 My questions are . . .

  How many short 4's in 18 is too many?
  Does a par 4 that takes the driver out of your hands annoy you?
  Does a short 4 have to be reachable by driver to be interesting?
  Does risk have to be high to make using the driver interesting?
  Do you respect short 4's eventhough you know that it is there because it is all that safety and the land will allow?
 
     

Slag

I don't know how many are too many short 4s.  It depends on the land.  

I don't mind the odd par 4 which takes driver out of the hands, but I wouldn't like to see a habit made of it.  In my experience there are very few holes of any type which take driver out of the hands.  The options may be quite limited, but usually there are options on holes that so called take the driver away.  In other words, this is mainly a long hitter's complaint that is often not true.

I don't mind the odd short 4 which isn't driveable - for all players.  These are the holes in which all handicap players stand on the tee as equals - I expect this is quite refreshing for a high capper.  I wouldn't want more than perhaps 1 or maybe 2 in a pinch on a course.  Having said that, the driveable short 4s are usually far more interesting.  We must keep in mind that most so called driveable short 4s are only so for a relatively small sector of golfers.  In fact, what is being built are unreachable short 4s.  With this in mind, I think it is very important for the short hitter to have a clear option to play for angles and have a good opportunity for a birdie as a way of combating against smash mouth golf.  

Yes, I think some sort of risk for the short 4 is what usually makes them interesting.  It doesn't have to be the do or die heroic shot.  Often times the very subtle difference in tactics and their results are more interesting than the all or nothing shot.  I really like it when wind and hole location play a large part in decision making for short 4s.  

The good short 4 is one type of hole I respect the most - regardless of why it was built.  I am especially appreciative of the short 4s that are reachable not only for the long hitters.   These are hard to pull so the fun factor has to be very high to compensate for the fact that a low capper may well be teeing off on a short 4 with a 5 wood, but he is still going for it.  I think you can probably tell from this description that I don't give a ballyhoo about the par listing of a hole - its entirely irrelevant.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Kilspindie is also full of drivable par 4s and its one of my favourite courses.

I consider a hole drivable where you could realistically expect to reach atleast 50% of the time. TD's example of 8 at TOC is on the surface true but I would beg to differ that they would all be drivable in the same round unless you had the good fortune to have the wind turn with you around the loop. Even on a calm day holes such as the 3rd,a blind 374 yards tee shot or the 16th 381 yards maybe drivable for Tiger and co. but for an average 10 handicapper?

[wsmorrison]

Merion East has 6 short par 4s and they are all outstanding with 5 coming in a very short span of holes: 1,7,8,10,11 and 12 (excluding the championship tee).

Merion West also has an outstanding set of short par 4 holes including 1,2,7,8,12,13 and 18.

[Ken Moum]

It's fascinating that this category of holes has been expanded to include holes that would force me to hit hybrid or fairway wood for my second shot about half the time.

So I have to argue that for me and my friends "short" par fours are 300-335 or so.

If you want to maintain overall length in the course, there's a limit to how many of them there can be.

I prefer to see the par fours well distributed from ~300 to ~460.

Do it in an interesting and challenging way and you've got me. But there's not much chance of there being more than  two or three truly short fours.

This approach also allows for several holes of ~350 which better players would find "short."

Ken

[Mike_Cirba]

McCall Field has 12 of them, and somehow that didn't seem too many.

[Brent Hutto]

It's fascinating that this category of holes has been expanded to include holes that would force me to hit hybrid or fairway wood for my second shot about half the time.

So I have to argue that for me and my friends "short" par fours are 300-335 or so.

I'm with you, Ken. A hole that's 350+ yards from the regular men's tees is not often a "Short 4". I think a good criteria for a "Short 4" might be that most players, playing from the same tees as they play the rest of the course, have a chance to play the hole Driver/Wedge or less.

If you've got to move up to the ladies tees to have a wedge into the green, it ain't short. If you've got to move to the way-back tees to use driver to drive the green, it ain't a Par 4. Anywhere between those extremes is good and I think with sufficient variety of effective lengths and shot shapes a good course could easily have 3, 4 or even more holes in that 290-340 range (from the regular men's tees). Some of them will probably work out to 350, 360 from the way-backs but if so they need the member's tees well forward and not just planted 10 yards in front of the 360 tee.

[Phil McDade]

Scotland's Boat of Garten has a bunch of them, and they are quite varied, so one doesn't get a sense of them being repetitive. They range from 360 (I agree about that being on the high end of a "short" par 4 for average hackers like me) to a driveable, risk/reward one of 271. (Eight in total -- in order, 360, 333, 355, 271, 349, 323, 307, 344)

What makes them enjoyable to play is that for the shorter players, although the course is difficult, it's not full of long and hard-to-reach par 4s. But for the better players, the tightness of the course (carved out of a forest of silver birch trees), the accuracy demanded of driving the ball, and the smallish, perched-up greens (many less than 30 yards deep) make for challenging holes.

[Brent Hutto]

Scotland's Boat of Garten has a bunch of them, and they are quite varied, so one doesn't get a sense of them being repetitive. They range from 360 (I agree about that being on the high end of a "short" par 4 for average hackers like me) to a driveable, risk/reward one of 271. (Eight in total -- in order, 360, 333, 355, 271, 349, 323, 307, 344)

What makes them enjoyable to play is that for the shorter players, although the course is difficult, it's not full of long and hard-to-reach par 4s. But for the better players, the tightness of the course (carved out of a forest of silver birch trees), the accuracy demanded of driving the ball, and the smallish, perched-up greens (many less than 30 yards deep) make for challenging holes.

Not too far from Boat of Garten is Fortrose & Rosemarkie. Looking at their card of the course they also have eight holes in this category with yardages of 254, 278, 295, 299, 305, 315, 322 and 330 from the visitor's tees. And the two shortest ones are back-to-back. The fourteenth is the 254 (267 from the back tees) followed by the fifteenth at 278 (293 from the back tees).

But then again that whole course is under 6,000 yards so maybe it's not a valid comparison to our real he-man courses here in the States. It's basically just a nice walk at the beach with a bunch of near-drivable holes. Who would want to play that  

[Ken Moum]

But then again that whole course is under 6,000 yards so maybe it's not a valid comparison to our real he-man courses here in the States. It's basically just a nice walk at the beach with a bunch of near-drivable holes. Who would want to play that  

Who indeed. <grin>

It's one of the courses I wish I'd heard of while planning our trip in 2006. I only "discovered" it as a result of Sheelagh Southwell's lament that she couldn't get customers of her B&B in Nairn to play it.

When my wife and I get back there, it's on the must-play list. It looks like a poor man's Old Head. With my puny driving distance, it looks perfect.

We did play Boat, and enjoyed it immensely.

Ken

[Tom_Doak]

My count was not based on holes that are driveable -- I think they are becoming a fad -- but on holes under 375-380 yards [which I guess is still driveable for Hank Kuehne].

[Phil McDade]

Both the Boat and F&R are James Braid courses -- Braid is probably the best classic-era architect for designing short courses of real merit and interest. He did a bunch of courses throughout the UK, and often worked on sites that were simply not big enough for 7,000-yard courses. A great router.

[Jordan Wall]

  How many short 4's in 18 is too many?

I dont think there is a set amount.  There should be as many or as little as the land allows.

  Does a par 4 that takes the driver out of your hands annoy you?

No, because I can hit my long irons pretty well.
If I could not, they would most definitely annoy me.
 
Does a short 4 have to be reachable by driver to be interesting?

No, not necessarily.  But I think to drive a par-4 green, distance control should be crucial.  A miss should be punished, since such a short hole would need to be defended well to hold its own against par.

  Does risk have to be high to make using the driver interesting?

Yes.  See the second part of my answer above.

  Do you respect short 4's even though you know that it is there because it is all that safety and the land will allow?

I love short par-4's.  They tend to provide a lot of options, at least on the well designed ones, and it can be hard to make a good score even when close to the green.  I remember driving within 30 yards of the green at #3 at Tumble Creek, where I then proceeded to make a 5.  So I definitely respect a short 4.
 
     

[Stan Dodd]

Brent,
Good call on Fortrose.  I played there this summer and the short fours where a real highlight.  The Driver can get you close or on some of the greens.  but slopes, gorse and tricky green complexes make for some risk.  I did not feel there were too many because par or better was not a sure thing and they had good variety.
Stan

[Brent Hutto]

Stan,

Just how tight did the course play the day you were there? I've not seen any detailed photos but given the way it's shoehorned onto that little peninsula...man, by the time you factor in gorse bushes, adjacent holes and a bit of breeze I'm imagining having to fight an urge to steer the ball around and keep it in play.

[Peter Pallotta]

Slag
interesting how many different ideas of what makes a "short Par 4" there are, and how these underpin the answers. For me, something around 290 (give or take) qualifies, and one or two in a round is enough; and I'd like to be able to TRY to reach them only very occasionally - I think at that length they can serve as a nice changeup and break under any circumstances.

Peter

[Norbert P]

 Thanks for the feedback, gents. Very interesting remarks.

 I've modified a question in the original post . . .


 What features make Short 4's respectable?

[Ken Moum]

Stan,

Just how tight did the course play the day you were there? I've not seen any detailed photos but given the way it's shoehorned onto that little peninsula...man, by the time you factor in gorse bushes, adjacent holes and a bit of breeze I'm imagining having to fight an urge to steer the ball around and keep it in play.

It doesn't appear that tight. More than 150 photos are online at:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Scotland/Fortrose/index.htm

Ken

[Ken Moum]

What features make Short 4's respectable?

What do you mean by that?

Or are you falling into the modern mindset that hard = good?

Ken

[Brent Hutto]

I think the keys to short 4's are much the same as other length holes. The goal is to create situations where differences in choice or execution off the tee create qualitatively different second shots. A respectable short 4 is a hole where if you tee off with a driver, you don't just have a shorter shot to the green...you have a different kind of shot to the green.

A lot of medium-length two-shotters offer pretty much only a quantitative decision. Of course you might end up in the rough or in a fairway bunker but assuming you put the tee shot into play, on a 380-yard straight hole if you drive it 200 yards you play a 180-yard iron or fairway wood shot. If you drive it 250 yards you just play a similar shot with a shorter club. Dogleg holes or "strategic" ones with angle and so forth can elaborate no this simple scenario but it's hard to do much else with a plain vanilla straight 350-400 yard hole.

On a short 4 it can be a forced decision (like lay up to >120 yards versus carry trouble of some sort to <80 yards) or it can be more subtle and "strategic". I personally like ones that have extreme dichotomies where a tee that is bog simple and trouble-proof leaves a tricky or difficult second while a more difficult or risky choice off the tee leaves an absolutely straightforward chip or pitch. But it's also OK to have more of a continuum than that as long as the differences are real.

[Stan Dodd]

Brent,
Although it was not a real windy day I did not feel the holes were shoehorned in.  A bit awkward out at the tip of the peninsula as it is a regular tourist stop with a road and hiking trails out to the lighthouse.
There is a real long par 4 and a par 3 out there divided by the road.
I would play there again in a second.
They actually have a 36 hole Open in July that is great value.

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