[paul cowley]

I think that really successful golf holes have a good storyline....one thats thats recognizable and starts at the tee and finishes at.....the green!
 I think CB Mac realized this in a way that was his basis for the template holes....famous holes that held ones interest throughout....holes that had recognizable strategies and features [storylines], that had stood the test of playing time.

My only problem with CBM's reliance on the same old good stories is that they [CB/Raynor/Banks], rarely relied on inventing new ones, but were more concerned with adapting classics to new site situations.

Now all of thats past history....but what about now?

Personally I can't design a hole without a complete storyline....its a design spellcheck process that hopefully bears good results.

I see many holes where the storyline starts well, but then fizzles ....or fizzles at the start but ends well.

If a hole has a good existing feature at the beginning, middle or end to begin with, then one needs to invent something suitable to tie in "the rest of the story"....and if one is a talented enough storyteller, the hole might become a popular read.

What separates a good hole and a tabloid?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Throw out a few hole stories and we'll match it to the story template: odyssey, defeat the monster, tragedy, comedy, etc.

Routings have storylines, too, don't they?

[paul cowley]

Mark...routings are the master story line.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

As you know, I've always very much appreciated your idea of holes having "storylines", and interesting ones. The thing I like most about it is they are theoretically "play based", if you know what I mean.

To me the benefit of those hole "storylines" is having them well worked out in conceptual/strategic theory and then actually getting them on the ground in a way that really matches the theoretical storyline concept and strategies in play.

The only thing that concerns me is sometimes those "storylines" might relate too much to only the very good player and only his shots and shot values.

As you know, there may two ends of a spectrum to go about accomplishing some of these things. One end of the spectrum is to create the appropriate and accommodating elasticity for all players and at the other end of the spectrum just might be to have no elasticity at all---a form of "old golf" (one tee for all), if you know what I mean.  

[paul cowley]

.....no Tom....we handle that with sub plots..

Welcome back you jet lagged, coffee latte, wine drinking fool!

I, and many, have missed you.

[Gary Daughters]

Holes/courses that follow a narrative seem to me to be the essence of golf architecture.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Paul
Do you know why lots of stories/movies have weak endings? I think it's because writers tend to start at the beginning.

If it's bad at the beginning, even a mediocre writer realizes it and starts all over again. But if writers get a good start, they're so excited that they just keep going, never pausing to determine whether or not the mechanics and elements of the 'story-line' they've put in place in the beginning can/will actually bear fruit, i.e. whether the story has legs enough to see it through to a satisfying end.

I think some mechanics/elements, as good as they may seem at the start, simply aren't inherently dramatic. And in that case, unless the writer really cares or really has the choice (i.e. to scrap the whole thing and start over), he'll try to muddle through the best he can by throwing in as many bells and whistles as possible to distract the audience from the obvious. (Car chases help).

Maybe there's a few parallels there with gca, in particular with template holes or with the concept of starting with the green site.

Peter

   

[TEPaul]

I like subplots, particularly if that may mean a hole plays differently for whatever reasons for various levels of golfers from day to day. Obviously that could mean some interesting things from tee to the green or even just the green itself for some reason. If it's the latter it's always better if it can be determined (seen) from the tee or better yet seen from another hole before one gets there.

[Gib_Papazian]

Paul,

Interesting thread - and one that has the potential to be even more inflammatory than the ongoing discussion about snapping pictures on the golf course.

My thought is that  - when all is said and done- there are a finite amount of strategies on a MACRO scale. Shakespeare was correct about there being only seven or so basic kinds of characters and the rest just variations on an existing theme.

I'll resist the temptation to quote Humphry Repton - if you do not have a copy of is book - or an even more egregious omission - "Scotland's Gift," you need to jump to your death in shame from the balcony of the Treehouse.

Actually, I will propose an amendment to the "Johnny Thunders Rule," which spared this uneducated, inflammatory puke the gallows. Thankfully, he left on his own, or is operating incognito with a nom de plume . . . . . has anyone every actually met some of these newbies? I suspect our entry point protocol needs updating to keep out undesirables.

On a MICRO scale, there are infinite variations, just as no two shots are exactly alike. I am not going to state that the introduction of a VALID strategy is impossible, because it is not
 
I have just never seen a completely original hole - except for something from Stone Harbor . . . . I am still a bit confused as to what Desmond was trying to do, but Tommy loves him, so I will hit the shut-up button.

One of the more interesting attempts at synthesizing two ideas at once came at Easthampton - they appear to have switched the nines and I am too far removed to remember exactly, but I recall a Biarritz green on a long par four. Maybe a bit like #12 at Fishers with a reverse-Redan on a two-shotter.

Nothing *really* original there, just a blending of concepts. I guess #7 at Pac Dunes comes close, but I'll have to ruminate on it a bit.  

[paul cowley]

Peter.... I have noticed that some of my best reads start slow at the beginning....I just assume that's an authors  deliberate attempt at character/plot development to create a wide field.

If you could teach me all you know about writing in exchange for all I know about golf....I'm sure I would become a better designer, but I doubt I would improve your golf game.

[JMorgan]

Paul, despite the fact that I have only designed several imaginary golf courses on real land -- CAD/Adobe and all -- but not one real McCoy, I am nevertheless utterly convinced -- to steal a literary analogy from Nabokov -- that it is not text but texture that defines the greatness of an individual hole.  

The hole should tell a short story in strokes that reads well within the overall context of all possible shots throughout the course.  

[paul cowley]

Tom....are you here or in some internet cafe?...I'm beginning to worry.
I cancelled my trip this week so I can be with you there the last week of November.

[TEPaul]

"Welcome back you jet lagged, coffee latte, wine drinking fool!"

That's true.

In the last week or so I sort of ODed on Etruscan walled cities in and around Tuscany and Umbria.

I'm not sure what that can offer you golf architecture-wise but it is pretty palatable imagining those Roman legions about a day or so away out on the Tuscan plains in view of those walled cities up in the Tuscan hills. It's very palatable too imagining those Etruscans in their walled cities looking down on those Roman legions out on the plain about a day or so away coming at them. From both vantage points back then what do you suppose it felt like realizing you had anywhere from 24 to 36 hours to live?

Can we build a storyline like that into a golf hole?

Can we build a risk/reward strategy where the pay-off is some really delicious tagliettelli carbonara---figuratively speaking of course?

[Mike McGuire]

Firm golf courses are more interesting to play than soggy ones.  When the ball hits the ground on a firm course the story is only half over.

[John Kirk]

With all due respect, the "golf hole as storyline" analogy does not work for me.  Could you give me an example please?

Signed,

Mr. Tangible Evidence

[Mark Bourgeois]

From both vantage points back then what do you suppose it felt like realizing you had anywhere from 24 to 36 hours to live?

Can we build a storyline like that into a golf hole?

Redan!

Or, from the same war, how bout a "Valley of Death" hole?  All you need is a valley, with a Woronzoff Road at causeway height to the right, heights to the left.  Directly ahead is an elevated green.

Now, to make this work, you need a French cafe on the heights to the left -- maybe a long sidewalk-type cafe would work (the important thing is to have unhelpful onlookers), and then, to replicate the murderous crossfire, you'll want a driving range down on the right, up on the causeway, where golfers hit across the hole to the left.

Fronting the green, a redoubt-like wall should traverse, with brief breaks periodically.

How's that?

[Rich Goodale]

It's a good analogy, Paul, althought at the hole level we're talking short story vs. epic.  Also, it ends in the hole, not on the green, or Monty would have won a major or two by now.

Relating the "story" to golf is interesting in that for each hole, or series of holes, or courses, the story will be different for different golfers, and even for the same golfer on different days.  Much as the 15-year old will have a much different experience reading "Catcher in the Rye" for the first time than the 65-year old (either reading it for the first time, or having picked it up again 50-years after the first reading) so any golf hole will be a much different experience for the 20-handicap player vs. the elite player, and even the elite player will have different experiences depending on a lot of variables (his own abilities on the day, the weather of the day, whether or not he has played the course before, his opposition, his mental state, etc.--in effect all of those things which drive and enrich plot-lines in stories).

In my "Experience" series I tried to explain the unique characteristics of Dornoch, the Old Course and Carnousite based on breaking down the round at each into a series of "chapters," different for each course.  I didn't do any deep thinking in writing these analyses, and others could surely choose different analogies or even explain my anaolgies better, but as a technique for analysis and explanation, I think it works, even if only for me.

Cheers

Rich

[TEPaul]

Richard:

Paul Cowley has a number of terms he's come up with that I like and like the sound of. One of them is "storylining".

I don't think it's much different really from what I call "a strategic conceptual workup" on a hole or even a course.

To me it's basically just discussing what-all you're trying to achieve via the mind or actual play of golfers (and hopefully through all the levels of golfers) on individual holes and then getting those storylines on the ground in a way that's comparable to what you're imagining or discussing.

I think it's just imagining the various ways the various levels of golfers might play holes and obviously the more means and methods and ways an architect can offer all the levels of golfers to do that via architecture is "storylining".

It probably seems like a relatively simple thing to do in theory but generally I doubt it is in practice because often some architects just don't really think through all that comprehensively what many golfers actually do go through in actual play---even in an ideal strategic sense.

To me some of the most interesting "storylines" attached to holes are when there are a number of things for even all levels to do day in and day out and those various things (strategies, options etc) are in some form of balance or equilibrium when nothing seems particularly obvious.

This to me is what Behr meant when he said architecture should challenge the mind of the golfer first even before a golfer decides what to do and executes any shot.

However, this does not mean to me that all holes should necessarily be multi-optional and choice laden. I see nothing at all wrong with the occasional one dimensional "shot test" strategic storyline too. Do or die, in other words.

All of it together just adds up to good balance and good variety in golf and architecture, in my opinion.

 

[TEPaul]

Richard (and Paul):

The most interesting thing to me about the initial post is not that you use the term "storyline" but that you mention that in your opinion some holes start well and fizzle for some reason or fizzle in the beginning and then end well.

I really do wonder what you ultimately might mean by that. I surely hope you aren't thinking in individual shot increments only, particularly via the risk/reward factor on individual shots or parts of holes because if so I think that's when "whole hole" strategic UNITY can begin to suffer or deteriorate.

I realize some don't like shots or holes where on some part such as the tee shot there really is nothing of concern in a risk sense, and that that only comes later if one just considers the entire hole instead of single shot increments.

I realize some think holes like that are weak or uninteresting. I don't think so, particularly if one begins to wonder why even seemingly well struck shots aren't working out very well for some reason!  

[TEPaul]

MarkB:

I'll throw out a few hole storylines that I consider to be pretty magnificent.

The first three holes at NGLA will certainly do.

What are the storylines on those holes really?

For starters those holes offer many different ways to go (strategies).

While it must be admitted that all of those various strategies are not necessarily designed for all levels of golfers to take advantage of (for obvious reasons) the point of their storylines is that they actually pit all golfers not just against the holes themselves and their inherent architecture but they pit golfers against one another in their ability or lack of it to make sensible decisions that translate into strokes taken by the end.

Holes that present some of the best of that old tortoise vs hare analogy are certainly some of the best and best architecture, in my opinion.

Another hole with a great storyline to me is the famous par 3 16th at Cypress. Everyone understands the high drama and demand of that tee shot to the green. But there is also the alternate strategy of playing to the left and attacking the hole as something of a very short par 4.

The fascination of the hole is not just in the mind of a golfer and what only he can do. The fascination is also in what one's opponent does first or might think to do after you!  

[John Kirk]

Thanks for the nice explanantion, TEP...

[paul cowley]

TomP....the purpose of this thread was to begin to analyze the thought process that goes into designing a course....but more what goes on after a suitable routing has been achieved.

I want to explore more the 'designing up' phase as you describe it, and the different strategic concepts available in different situations.

I see many golf holes that suffer from a design disconnect that was the result of not thinking a hole through from tee to green [some of my own included].....where features were more applied because they looked like the hole needed one here or there, or its because that's what is considered accepted design...you know, 'the short bunker right, longer one left' syndrome, be it fairway or green complex....that was kind of cool in its day, but not a strong diet of it.

I have been developing some design methodologies of late that allow for strategic thought in different situations that can occur during the process, ....strategic spell checks, as  mentioned earlier.

But my time is short, and maybe it will be best to start another thread later.

[TEPaul]

"I want to explore more the 'designing up' phase as you describe it, and the different strategic concepts available in different situations."

Paul:

Excellent.

I was hoping that would be the way this discussion would go and what you were intending.

I have no doubt at all that you could take, say, that exact same dimensional routing at the Newark project and make it up to 20 quite different golf courses simply through some vast variations in the so-called "designing up" phase----the "storyline" phase, as it were.

I don't know what the ultimate decisions will be in that area and vein but I'm still holding out for some really good "Mrs Grundy's Tits" mounds and perhaps some good imitations of Maritian debris areas on another part of the course.

I just can't imagine better or more complete architectural variety than Mrs Grundy's Tits mounds and Maritian debris areas.

You know that rest stop area Bill wants built up in the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th and 15th area?

I say we build something there that serves the same purpose but underground. Maybe something like a his and hers underground privy that has a whole load of Indian Jones snakes in the bottom.

Would you mind if I propose some of these things to the club? I think it's time to break a little ice, don't you? Even if they don't go for some of these ideas of ours in the end I think the time has at least come for them to understand just how creative we really are or can be!

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Seriously, though, in a little while allow me to run through, say, the first six or so holes at Newark and try to describe what I think the storyline on them is or isn't to date and maybe what I think they might be or could be.

Is that OK?

And then you do the same thing and we'll compare stories or storylines.

[Peter Pallotta]

“I have noticed that some of my best reads start slow at the beginning....I just assume that's an authors  deliberate attempt at character/plot development to create a wide field.”

Paul
If you know that already, you already know all that I know. I think I’m gonna get the best of that bargain.  

John K  
I don’t think this is what Paul is really talking/asking about, and I think TE has already done it well, but I’ll take a shot at trying to provide an example/analogy of a storyline/hole:

ACT I, SCENE 1:

Male-bonding after painful divorces. Felix is a nervous sort, Oscar a loud-mouthed slob.  They've driven west a long way from New York, and to a golf course. The first tee here sits hard by the practice green, with members watching. Felix fidgets, picking lint from his cardigan; Oscar smokes a cigar, talking trash.  

They step up, and a change begins. The grand vista shakes them, the cool wind refreshes.  The demand is thrilling: a diagonal carry across a valley to an inviting fairway. A studious Felix pauses: it reminds him of the 1st at Macrihanish, of playing well there and happier times.  A measure of peace comes, and his 2 iron is struck well and true. Now the loutish Oscar jumps, driver in hand: he sees only a pitifully wide fairway, and a free ride. He blasts away, 30 and 40 yards longer, to the right edge of the fairway.

Oscar struts off with a nod to the members, proven right and strong; Felix’s shoulders slump, and head down he thinks of being bested once again, and of his failings. But wait! A surprise, and seeming act of fate: a meaning and a message for both. For Felix, a do-able approach shot, a short iron in his hand, a rare green light in his timid life. For Oscar, cruelty and unfairness, trapped behind a mound now with a blind approach awaiting, proof again that it’s not a man’s world, his strength and boldness mocked.

But the wind still blows here, and save for the wind there is much silence. Or it’s the vast space perhaps, but Oscar does not succumb this time to his anger and bitterness, nor Felix to a desire to be remade in one fell swoop or one perfect shot.  Felix takes more club than necessary and swings easy and calm, and is on the green in two; and this almost brings a tear to his eye.  Oscar nods a well done, and feels good for his friend; and now realizes that his strength has indeed served him well, as the hole is not a long one and he has but a wedge left in his hand.  And he too strikes it true, over the mound and to a green that he cannot see, and it’s only Felix’s applause that tells him he is on.

And together the two friends walk to the green, each in their way and alone with their thoughts, to the birdie putts that await and to the mysteries and magic that lie ahead.  

And so starts the story.  

The opening hole at Ballyneal.

Peter
A little sappy, huh? Yeah: I see it as a made for television special sponsored by a greeting card company

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