[Mike McGuire]

Our course has widened some airways and done some tree management.

Should we consider slightly higher rough?

We have been mowing, mostly bluegrass, at 2.5 inches. Very easy to find the ball and not much of a penalty.

How are others managing the line between finding the ball and suffering a little if you miss the fairway?

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

A couple of the clubs where we have consulted have raised the rough height in compensation for taking out a lot of trees, along the line of reasoning you suggest.

It has always proved very unpopular with the membership and the rough has been cut back to its original height after a couple of months, or a year at most.  Women and seniors DO NOT enjoy trying to find their ball or to dig it out of long rough.

In fact, nobody does!

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

Good for you for widening. What I have seen work with this new width is to keep things as firm as possible. No ultra long, lush rough to keep a ball from real trouble, just wide fairways and the ability of the ball to get sideways on mishits. Like Tom says, no one enjoys hack and gouge, but hitting recovery shots around and under and over can induce creativity.

Keep the bumper bowling philosophy at the bowling alley, during little one's birthday parties.....

Joe

[Bill Brightly]

Oh boy, imagine being greens chair after we put in a new irrigation system (that also allows us to fertilize through the system...) making the roughs pop this year! Then having dinner with your 78 year old mother and her friends...(men and women) and listening to them bitch...while all the A players tell me its great, our course needs thick rough as a defense...

No easy way out of this...

[Joe Hancock]

Oh boy, imagine being greens chair after we put in a new irrigation system (that also allows us to fertilize through the system...) making the roughs pop this year! Then having dinner with your 78 year old mother and her friends...(men and women) and listening to them bitch...while all the A players tell me its great, our course needs thick rough as a defense...

No easy way out of this...

New irrigation systems are not a guarantee for over-watering. It's more of a golf culture thing than a systems thing.

The right conditions can be sold to anyone, as long as the commitment and confidence are there. In other words, leadership with fortitude can make it happen.

Joe

[Doug Siebert]

Is there any reason the rough has to be of uniform height?  You have two conflicting goals here: 1) providing adequate challenge/penalty for better/longer hitters and 2) not making things impossible for the weaker players for whom 2.5" may already be more than they can handle.

But these two groups typically miss in different locations.  Keep the rough short on the way from the teebox (at least/especially the senior and women's teeboxes) to the start of the fairway, and provide a "second cut" that's maybe 10-15 yards on either side of the fairway that's kept at the current height.  Then you can do 3.5-4.5" beyond that where the stronger players will hit their wilder shots and you feel the penalty the trees used to impose is now lacking.  Just don't overdo the height if the rough is especially thick, otherwise people will spend forever looking for balls.

The big hitters never hit the ball in the rough short of the fairway and the seniors and women rarely hit more than 15 yards off the fairway so that's probably your best shot at keeping both groups happy.  You might even win further favor with the seniors and women by mowing from their tees to the fairway at first cut height instead of the current 2.5".  I'll bet they'd happily accept longer rough 15 yards off the fairway that they hardly ever see in exchange for having better recovery options for when they foozle a drive and don't make the fairway.

[Bill Brightly]

Joe,
It's not a case of "over-watering" but rather, the new system covers a much wider area of rough (no more "runway strips" of hardpan outside the rough) and the super CAN water just the rough and not the fairway, which needs far less water. And the fertigation system can really help produce healthier plants, which is far toughr to hit out of.

Doug,
I have been thinking about that very idea: keeping roughs short before the fairway, and on the outside of the fairways up to 200 from the tee, but I imagine that this might be a bit of an operational headache for the super. Mower blade heights will have to be adjusted, etc. ,and he can't just send the guy out with orders  to "just cut the rough."

Some of you may say "he works for you, just tell him to do it" but there is only so much time and money to get things done out there...

[jeffwarne]

Doug's theory fails to consider that seniors, women, and everyone else often hits their SECOND or third shot waywardly.

It sounds as if you've answered your own question Bill.
If the new irrigation allows you to water roughs only(or more), you're going to have lusher rough than before.Why raise the height as well?

What is it we're always defending?
How many better players are quitting the game because trees are removed and the rough's too easy anyway?

[Jim Franklin]

We let our rough grow and I hate it. It was supposed to be 3 1/2 inches, but it was 6-7 inches in spots and just impossible to do anything but hack out. It takes the recovery shot completely out of the game. Golf is supposed to be fun isn't it?

[Bill Brightly]

It is not just the height of the rough, but the type and thickness of the grass. Ever play out of 2 1/2 inches of bentgrass that creaped out of the fairway into the rough area? I'll take 3 1/2 inches of rye all day long!

And you can come up with a desired height, 2 1/2, 3 or 3 1/2 inches, but KEEPING it at that height is not easy, especially if you have a few days when the equipment can't go out but golfers can...

No perfect answer, the course set up desired by A players will always be at odds with most seniors. There is a balance, and you can always set it up harder for certain events. I'm not worried about dealing with both camps. I posted this because many courses are getting new irrigation systems and thicker and WIDER roughs are a result that some do not expect.

[Joe Hancock]

Bill,

Since you have the water, fertility and whatever means for "healthy" grass, why not take the fairways all the way out to the boundrys? That would accomplish a lot without taxing the weaker player too much.

Joe

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have never thought that the grass in the rough should be uniform.  I like to see patches of hardpan, a clump of grass here and there.  After all it is called "rough", not "tall grass."  Various conditions require various and differing skills.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

Since you have the water, fertility and whatever means for "healthy" grass, why not take the fairways all the way out to the boundrys? That would accomplish a lot without taxing the weaker player too much.

Joe

OK, I will do that, if you let me put in the 40 bunkers that were either removed or never built from our ODG's plan! As you can guess, when he built it, the fairways went from tree line to tree line (and there weren't too many tree lines...)

Of course, I will be looking for a new club after the members get done lynching me...

[Joe Hancock]

Bill,

Since you have the water, fertility and whatever means for "healthy" grass, why not take the fairways all the way out to the boundrys? That would accomplish a lot without taxing the weaker player too much.

Joe

OK, I will do that, if you let me put in the 40 bunkers that were either removed or never built from our ODG's plan! As you can guess, when he built it, the fairways went from tree line to tree line (and there weren't too many tree lines...)

Of course, I will be looking for a new club after the members get done lynching me...

Bill,

In your own way, you are bringing to light (Brightly?) the conflict that lies ahead of every reno/remod/restore job that gets a look-see. There are no easy answers.

Having said that, there are situations that present a clearly defined right and wrong for a project. One of a kind features (Oakmont church pews), historical significance, architecturally speaking(MacKenzie/ Ross on same property), etc., are some examples of when to be firm and do the right thing.

I don't know the situation you are in. But, it sounds like you have a heartfelt answer to what's right and wrong, but are looking for the easy way to accomplish goals and still have everyone like you. That's a tough task.

Good luck with your pending tree removal program (you know it has to be done!) and your implementation of the ODG's recommendations (make sure it will look old!).

Joe

[Troy Alderson]

Bill,

Since you have the water, fertility and whatever means for "healthy" grass, why not take the fairways all the way out to the boundrys? That would accomplish a lot without taxing the weaker player too much.

Joe

I agree with you Joe, no "roughs" except what is naturally there outside the fair route to the green.  Cut the fairways out to the edges of the corridor of play.

Troy

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