[Robert Thompson]

There's a course in Ontario, done by Brit Stenson of IMG along with Nick Faldo, that was closed last year after its third full year to have several fairways reworked and recontoured, rock blasted and approaches changed. The course, called "The Rock," will reopen next year.
My question is this -- how many truly successful do-overs have their been in golf in recent years? I'm talking about courses that had fallen out of favour with the playing public and had features significantly altered. I'm wondering about whether these courses were able to overcome the initial stigma attached to them.

[David Stamm]

Robert, although done over due to the course being wiped out by floods, Soule Park came out much better than it was before when Hanse finished with it.


I haven't played it, but the Shore course at MPCC sure looks like it was a success.

[wsmorrison]

White Manor, in suburban Philadelphia, was originally a Wm Gordon design done over by Bobby Weed.  The club was in financial trouble but I think is in better shape with a larger membership than before.

[Powell Arms]

White Manor, in suburban Philadelphia, was originally a Wm Gordon design done over by Bobby Weed.  The club was in financial trouble but I think is in better shape with a larger membership than before.

Wayne, have you played the new course yet?  I think the redo adds 2 on the Doak scale.

[wsmorrison]

Yes, Powell, I have played the course and also think it is a dramatic improvement.  Doak 4 to 6 maybe, surely no worse than 3 to 5.

[Powell Arms]

Yes, Powell, I have played the course and also think it is a dramatic improvement.  Doak 4 to 6 maybe, surely no worse than 3 to 5.

Agreed.  None other come to mind that are +2.  

edit - to clarify, I mean none that I have played before and after come to mind as +2

[mike_malone]

 DuPont could be a leap of 2 ; I grew up playing there and the more I think about the redo the more significant I think it is. When you significantly improve the green complexes as to internal contour and strategy you really improve a course.
  The improved bunkering is good but I wouldn't change my view as much based on those changes as the changes at the green.

  As well, they moved a green to a totally different and challenging location which also enhances the profile of the course.

   Go and play it!

[Jason Mandel]

As many know I've been at White Manor for most of my life.  The changes Bobby Weed made 3 years ago certainly were significant and dramatic.  I would agree that we are at least a Doak 6, probably a 7, but I obviously am a bit of a homer

I can tell you that it is really difficult to break the stigma of your old course, especially for those that haven't been out to see the place yet and have just read about it.

It's really strange sometimes playing there or walking the course, because things that used to be there just aren't there any more even though you're on the same land.

I've given a GCA presentation on this a few years ago and have written about the course on this site before as well, but if anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

By the way, Scott Sherman, Bobby's design associate says they stopped counting at 1000 tree's taken out.  We are taking out more this winter(behind 11 and 12) and I think there are places where we could and should take out more.


Jason

[Sam Morrow]

Not directly but Redstone's Member course outside Houston sits on much of the land that used to be El Dorado Country Club. Probably a better example would be Doral Tesoro next to Texas Motor Speedway in Ft. Worth, it opened as The Creeks at Beechwood, a wicked hard, Norman track and it's been redone with some of the edges taken off.

[Kyle Henderson]

According to an article I read, Del Paso CC (Sacramento, CA)has a much healthy membership outlook following the redo by Kyle Phillips.

[James Bennett]

By the way, Scott Sherman, Bobby's design associate says they stopped counting at 1000 tree's taken out.  We are taking out more this winter(behind 11 and 12) and I think there are places where we could and should take out more.

Jason

Good to hear Jason, I enjoyed my final morning in Philly with you, seeing the GAP matches at White Manor.

We talked about the possibility of seeing the green from the tee on the dogleg right par 4 - was it 11 or 12 or 13?  Is that likely with this work.  

James B

[Jason Mandel]

James,

You are referring to the 13th hole, in my opinion the best and toughest hole on the course, as well as one of the best holes in the area.

Some of those trees to the right of 13th tee have been taken down, mostly by mother nature though over the past few years.  I'd like to see some more come down this year, but not sure how many will actually come down.  I don't think we'll ever get to the point where it gets opened up enough to see the green, but that would be cool.  Now that the leaves are coming down i'm going to check it out and see how much work would have to be done for that to happen.  I won't hold my breath though.

I am still embarrased that I never sent you those pictures that you took with my brothers camera.  I did however have them uploaded to Webshots.  I'd be happy to give you the info to access webshots and you could download them yourself.

Jason

[Michael Christensen]

our own Bill McBride's Pensacola CC was redone by J Pate....I never played it before the latest hurricane, but I thought it was a fun and sporty course!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Robert,

This is a few years old, but I have a complete redo of Indian Creek in DFW.  It was a solid Dick Phelps course on flat, but heavily treed land and short walks green to tee.  It didn't need major surgery other than some length and a cosmetic facelift to freshen its look after 20 years of low budget maintenance.  There was no stigma, but had fallen out of favor as other courses were built.  

After a remodel and some management change, the course went from an $850K annual loss to a $300K annual profit through rising fees and play.  I would say a $1Million turnaround is fairly successful.  As far as design, it did place in GD's Best New lists, which helped its publicity levels.

[Mike_Cirba]

Good calls on both White Manor and Dupont, both of which are 1.5-2 Doak points better after re-do's by Bobby Weed and Lester George, respectively.

Just played Dupont two weeks back and the back nine is really terrific, although I'm not a huge fan of 18, which most people now seem to love.   15, however, is outstanding!

[Jason Mandel]

Mike,

I was just thinking the same thing regarding DuPont.  While never having played the course before, I really liked the new version.  I too though, didn't love 18(and my ball didn't end up in the hazard like yours   ) .  I thought the first 4 or 5 holes comprise one of the tougher starting stretches in the area, especially with the pins we had.

Jason

[Robert Thompson]

After a remodel and some management change, the course went from an $850K annual loss to a $300K annual profit through rising fees and play.  I would say a $1Million turnaround is fairly successful.  As far as design, it did place in GD's Best New lists, which helped its publicity levels.

Jeff -- thanks for the response. In the case I cited, the course was public, in an area with resorts. It had struggled because it generated a reputation as being far too difficult, though it was only 6,600 yards long.
The owners have involvement with Marriot, which suggested Faldo/Stenson in the first place. Faldo mumbled about issues with the course during his opening round there. By the end of its third season they were essentially giving away a steak dinner just to keep people playing.
What I'm interested in is something akin to your example -- once the public is turned off of something, can they be turned back on enough to turn around a course? Should the owner rebrand it? What can be done to convince people it is better the second time round?

[Ray Richard]

The early line on Ocean Edge, Brewster, Ma is quite favorable. The original course was a patched up remnant of an old nine hole course and some new bland ones. The whole course got blown out in 2006-2007 and an all new Nicklaus Design 18 hole course was overlayed. Nine holes are open and the other nine will open in the spring. It's a drastic improvement.

[mike_malone]

If you had played 18 at DuPont before the changes you would appreciate the new strategy available now. By opening up the area on the left one can now carry the water to that small faiirway section. Before you had to hit it straight out and avoid the creek.While there was the option of hugging the left side it wasn't as much fun as it is now.
 BTW  they should add a tree next to the lone one there now because it will die eventually .

[Wayne_Kozun]

What about the National Golf Club in Canada?  Wasn't it a redo of a golf club called Pine Valley?

I believe 4 or so holes of Royal Dornoch redone after WW II.

And weren't several other Scottish courses substantially redone after WWII as they were used as military sites and/or airports?  Didn't this happen at Turnberry?

[Jed Peters]

According to an article I read, Del Paso CC (Sacramento, CA)has a much healthy membership outlook following the redo by Kyle Phillips.

Nope, they were booked before with a waiting list, and the same now.

Incredibly, in spite of their whining that our course was too hard, their membership survived playing at Morgan Creek for the year.

[Mike_Cirba]

If you had played 18 at DuPont before the changes you would appreciate the new strategy available now. By opening up the area on the left one can now carry the water to that small faiirway section. Before you had to hit it straight out and avoid the creek.While there the option of hugging the left side it wasn't as much fun as it is now.
 BTW  they should add a tree next to the lone one there now because it will die eventually .

Mayday,

I never played it prior but I walked it several times.

I still like the old one better because of exactly what you mentioned...the need to get the ball as close to the creek as possible for a relatively shorter uphill approach...playing away from the creek left a daunting second and there were some great finishes there during the LPGA.  

Not every split fairway is an improvement.  

The left side is awkward, it is too long to the optimum angle on the right side, and the hole seems very forced to me.

On the other hand, changes like #2, 3, 11, 12, and #15 are terrific!  

[mike_malone]

 Mike,

    Even if you stayed left you had a downhill lie to an uphill green. Now the rest of us can try to be like Laura Davies ! (Her drives during the LPGA days are legendary.)

[A.G._Crockett]

Finley GC, the university-owned and operated course at UNC, was completely redone (including the routing) by T. Fazio several years ago, and has been much more highly regarded since the do-over.  

Personally, I still really, really miss the old version, but it would have certainly fit the bill of having fallen out of favor with the golfing public.

[Jason Topp]

Thunderbird (now Vistal) in Phoenx went from a 1-2 to a 3-4.

How about the TPC Boston?  It sure looks better.

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