[Jordan Wall]

[Jordan Wall]

[RJ_Daley]

Well, you must have been there earlier in the year, Jordan.  Are you going to tell us about it, or just let us drink in the scenery?  

Had I known that snake was there, I may not have even looked for my balls when they went into the native!  

I will brag on one thing if you will endulge me.  Last year, filled with great anticipation from seeing previous photos posted, and seeing the 7th hole in construction, I wanted very much to play 7 well.  I just think it is a scream of a short par 4.  Well, I flubbed my dub and made a 7!    All, I could think about over the last year was getting back at that 7th hole.  Hey... I made a birdie there last Friday!    The hex is lifted and all is right with the world.  

I saw Pete LaValle's wife make a nice par there this week as well.  

[Jim Nugent]

I wanted very much to play 7 well.  I just think it is a scream of a short par 4.  Well, I flubbed my dub and made a 7!

RJ -- thank God number 7 isn't actually number 15.  

[Mark Chaplin]

A couple of the greens and some of the fairways look as if the grass is stressed, is this just time of the year, discolouration or is the course still settling down?

[PThomas]

Jordan, thanks for posting these for me!

These are from a visit in June of this year...I don't have time right now to provide more info, but will later..

[Adam Clayman]

These photos look like they were taken after top dressing. Yes, at Ballyneal we top dress the whole course. The current conditions are much improved and the future looks bright. I'm predicting that 08' will be the year Ballyneal starts to get her voice. Hummingwise.

[Larry_Keltto]

A couple of the greens and some of the fairways look as if the grass is stressed, is this just time of the year, discolouration or is the course still settling down?

I'm a homer, but IMO the turf made tremendous progress in 2007. When I played two weeks ago, I was thrilled with the conditions. It came a long way from even the end of July. The most-exposed, vulnerable high spots have filled in. A divot now produces a tightly knit piece of turf, compared to the "cotton candy" from last year.

I really like what Dave Hensley has done with the greens and their transition into the surrounds; there is no "line" between the two, just a blending that's great visually and for playability. With the speeds up, the greens are showing their full character. I saw a lot of 10-foot comebackers two weeks ago; any two-putt was well-earned.

[Jordan Wall]

Yes, I only wish I'd played the course.

But it does look cool...really cool
 

Awesome.

[Greg Tallman]

Would be interested to hear TD's description/thought process of the "three hump green" with the pin set amid all.

Looks contrived from the photo... sure it plays more natural than it looks from the pic.

Without knowing I would assume it has to be a reachable 4 par or a two shot 5?

[tlavin]

Just goes to show you that there's a lot of heaven here on earth.

[PThomas]

Ballyneal is a great course and experience...a fun course that one would never tire of playing, imho.......trememdous green complexes , which are obvious from the pictures

unbelievable and great solitude and quiet out there, and beautiful lodging and restaurant facilities as well.....sitting out on the patio at twilight, hearing nothing and feeling the breeze after a day's golf there....well, life doesn't get much better than that

kudos To Mr. O'Neal and Tom D for the stunning achievement that is Ballyneal

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

If the photo you are referring to is in the midst of the first batch of posts, that's the eighth hole, a short, often downwind par-5 as you surmised.  And that's a nasty hole location, borderline unfair.

You are looking backwards on the hole, but the hump at the golfer's right (photo left) holds up about a three-foot tier on the upper right of the green.  That part of the green plays like a 2000 sf target for players' third shots, getting there in two is just lucky.  

The other two humps can be used to conceal nasty hole locations, and to air-brake a putt from the upper tier if you are unfortunate enough to wind up there when the hole is somewhere else (a bad play).

When my associate Brian Schneider built the green, I thought it was over the top myself, and it took a while of imagining shots from all points to decide that we could live with it.  I'm sure some people find it maddening ... a good friend of mine four-putted it playing with me in the Renaissance Cup, but he went for the green in two and blocked it right onto the upper tier, and then hit a terrible first putt that didn't go down the hill.  Otherwise, he would have easily made par, which is what he deserved.

P.S.  Glad I can answer the question about that green; one of your buds tells me I'll be persona non grata if I explain anything at Sebonack in the same depth.

[Tim Bert]

Greg - Here's a couple more photos of the 8th green from ground level - one from the front and one from the back.  I also have another one from the elevated perspective and the humps definitely stand out in the photos from up there.  Still, the slopes are quite dramatic.



 

[Adam Clayman]

The key features that play on the approach, to holes on the lower 2/3rds, are the two noses in the front, and, the turbo boost on the back side of the hellish like bunker gaurding the left, some 15 yards short. The back bowl area turns out to be one of the easier hole locations. Getting there in two is doable by skirting above the valley gaurding the entire right side. Every time I stand on that tee  think of Gib's term, sexy.

Tom, if you're in the mood would share the story of how the seventh green came into being?

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

Sure, I can share that story.

The green site for #7 is in the bottom of a long, straight, narrow valley with banks of native grass to both sides.  

The native grass presented a problem because we think it looks terribly artificial when the "green golf grass" goes part-way up a slope and then it transitions to native.  We try to hide those transitions from the golfer's eye as much as we can by letting the GGG go up over a hill and then transition to native on the other side, out of view; or by building a bunker as a transition.

On the seventh green, I didn't want to put bunkers both sides, but I thought it was going to be silly if I put green grass all the way up the bank on the left, because it was a short par-4 and a bad pulled approach would just bounce down onto the green anyway.

It was only the day we were out there to build the green that it occurred to me that I could use that bank shot to my advantage, by crowding bunkers on the other side nearly into the middle of the valley to make a green based on the seventh at Crystal Downs.  Once I had that vision, it took the shaper [Brian Schneider, who has gotten two mentions in this thread, but didn't do all the greens at Ballyneal; Kye Goalby and Eric Iverson also did their share, and Dan Proctor and I did one each] about two hours to rough in the green.  All he did was dig out the right-hand bunkers with an excavator, place that material to make the little tiers in the green and walk them in with the tracks.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Given the wind and the contours on those greens, did you have a top green speed in mind when designing and grassing the course?  

Do you consult with the superintendent so it is understood under what mowing heights the course will play at its best?  

When the course fully matures, at what green speeds do you think the course will start to go over the top and get out of hand?

Sorry for all the questions, but do you think in terms of a range of green speeds when designing such as daily play to tournament conditions?

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, I can't speak for Tom, but having seen how the green speeds have picked up this year I can tell you that there's plenty of room to move the hole locations, green height depending. I assume there's been a learning curve for the Superintendent and certain pins are just not doable above 11 on the stimp. The wind does play a major factor on putting on certain days as well as grain.

The premium placed on ball placement is accentuated when the greens push this level or the wind is really blow'in. Although, Bill Coore didn't seem to mind them at last years Ren Cup. The man drained nearly everything he looked at. On that day the greens were verticut to their lowest level to that date and he had never seen them before. It was a real treat to watch the partner of one of the greatest putters of all time, make everything.

[Daryl David]

Here is a photo of the 7th green at Ballyneal.  My favorite pin location is the upper middle just past the right bunker finger.  You have 3 sides you can bank in from.  Straight up air brake style and right and left. Left is risky as you have to curve around short of the bunker.  

[Daryl David]

As long as we are on Ballyneal greens, let me offer up my favorite.  Number 12.  The most fun you can have 3 putting!

[Adam Clayman]

DD, That picture of 12 is pretty serendipitous. To that exact hole location, from nearly that exact spot, I hit one of those shots that makes figuring things out, and the satisfaction that comes with it, the premiere aspect of the sport. I played a putt up the ridge sweeping hard right just so the ball would carry the ridge, to the same level onto the green as the hole location. As it almost stops, and, as long as it carries the ridge, the ball takes almost a 90 degree turn to the left, going st8 to the hole. One of the coolest putts I have ever had the opportunity to play, anywhere. It came up aprox. a foot short but was an easy tap in par. I've even driven the ball to this same picture location, once.

[PThomas]

Here is a photo of the 7th green at Ballyneal.  My favorite pin location is the upper middle just past the right bunker finger.  You have 3 sides you can bank in from.  Straight up air brake style and right and left. Left is risky as you have to curve around short of the bunker.  

one of my all-time favorite green complexes....i just love how those right side bunkers eat into the green!

[Tom_Doak]

Daryl:

Your photo of the 12th gives me a good chance to explain where I think the criticisms of my "severe greens" are somewhat exaggerated.

Many good players and some architects would belittle this green if they wound up on the upper-right tier with the hole cut as it is in your picture.  Never mind that they could putt toward the back of the green (to the slope just below the furthest left corner of the bunker) and have the ball feed back to the hole ... that's for another day.

My point is, why would anybody miss the shot onto the upper tier with this hole location, unless they are just not paying attention?  There is tons of room left and short of the hole, which gives you an uphill putt with a backstop to play with if you are feeling frisky like Adam.  And it's not hard at all to get the ball into the bottom of the bowl left and short.

It IS hard to get the ball to stay top right when the flag is up there ... that takes a great approach shot.  But if you fail you've got an uphill putt, and the ball shouldn't get away from you whether the greens are faster or slower.

So, Wayne, to answer your question about green speeds, yes, I think about them, but I am confident you can play this course with the greens up to 11 as long as you pay attention to which side you're missing on.  Beyond 11, I wouldn't recommend, because if the wind is up the ball might blow off portions of some greens.  But that's true of Sand Hills as well.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I think contours that put a greater demand on placement on a green are a great feature, especially given wind and green speed considerations.  I don't question that at all.  TOC has some greens and wind combinations that you don't want to be putting with the wind at your back and you need to keep that in mind in your approach shot and club selection.  That stuff is awesome (and not because it is found at Sand Hills, either).

I was curious as to how an architect takes grassing and maintenance practices into account on sites where things can go over the top at 11.  The need to translate this to the superintendents and committees is vital.  How do you ensure the maintenance practices stay in the range of playability intent?  An ongoing relationship with the club and the superintendent must be key to prevent some green committee down the road determining that the greens must run 13-14 like such-and-such course down the road (with entirely different green designs) and so the greens get softened decades from now.  Given what is happening at classic era courses today, I worry that design/maintenance intent gets thrown out the window and greens get softened.

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:

You are right that there are many causes for us to worry that someday someone will maintain our greens much faster than we intended.  If Ross or MacKenzie came back from the dead they would probably have a heart attack watching people try to play their greens at modern speeds.

Ballyneal has three things going for it in this regard.  First, there's no course across the street with greens at 13.  Second, the greens are fescue, and until all the grass transitions to something else, it will be hard to get them too fast.  Third, Rupert O'Neal isn't in awe of prevailing golfer wisdom; he understands the relationship of slope and speed and cost.

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