[Matt_Cohn]

I'm still processing my thoughts about Rustic Canyon, but here's one item.

I had 11 short game shots that day - i.e., I was off the green but within 40 yards of the hole.

Of those 11, I had:

1 sand shot
1 chip
9 putts from off the green

The chip would have been a putt except it was in an inch of rough. I could have putted it though. Of the 9 putts, only 2 had any major slopes involved.

I got bored of hitting 60 foot putts, especially since there was no viable alternative. You have to putt them. You'd be a complete idiot to chip any of them, at least from what I observed.

As a result, it seems to me that there's a distinct lack of variety around the greens at Rustic Canyon, and that this is a weakness of the course.

Thoughts? Agree, or disagree?

Also, how does this aspect of the course compare to TOC?

[Ryan Farrow]

Your an idiot.  





No, seriously.





Did you not have fun?

I really like to putt from off the green any chance I get.

Would you rather chip from the rough?

Why couldn't you do anything other than putt?

The surrounds were not that tight.

I remember having a plethora of different types of shots from around the green.

On a scale of 1-10, how much fun was your round of golf, pure golf.

On a trip that included Riviera, and a 3 hour walk of The Valley Club, Rustic was by  far much, much more fun, taking into account how much fun I think I would have had if I actually played The Valley Club.

[Lloyd_Cole]

[quote author=Matt_Cohn I got bored of hitting 60 foot putts, especially since there was no viable alternative. You have to putt them. You'd be a complete idiot to chip any of them, at least from what I observed.

Matt

On my two rounds at RC, I was not bored once.  

Maybe you should take Mrs. Hogan's advice to Ben and just hit it closer to the hole, next time.

[Ryan Farrow]

Wow, I'm sorry, you said you played Rustic Canyon? Like the Gil Hanse Rustic Canyon in Moorpark, CA?

I just went through my pictures of every hole at Rustic to re-affirm my suspicion that you were on some kind of hard core drug when you were playing this golf course. If there is anything that Rustic Canyon provides its an insane amount of variety around the green.


Boring putts?

Are you serious?



You must have been on a different planet.

[Jon Wiggett]

Matt,

I sure Phil would have opened up the face of his Lob Wedge and floated them in there . Or the guy I played with yesterday who took 3 iron from 45 yards, one stone cold top later and he had a 2 inch tap in . Maybe you just need to broaden your shot making ability

[Matt_Cohn]

A recap. Sorry, I think it was 8, not 9:

#1: 100 feet from long left to front pin; over moderate hill.
#3: 100 feet from long right; no major contours.
#6: 60 feet from short, through big swale.
#7: 40 feet, uphill, nothing unusual.
#10: 60 feet from short, almost dead flat.
#14: 40 feet from long-right to front pin; left-to-right break but nothing crazy.
#17: 60 feet from right fringe to center pin; about 3 feet of break.
#18: 60 feet from short to front pin; almost flat, about 2 feet of break.

[ed_getka]

Matt,
   Given the level of your game I am pretty surprised to hear you were having that many 60 foot putts.
   If you don't think anything but putter was the option at RC then I really don't think you want to play TOC.
   There are certainly places you could put the ball depending on the pin location with your approach shot that could leave you with putter being the best option. I know you are an elite level player, but it sounds like a lack of imagination or a lack of confidence in your short game. Of course, the collars of the greens are a major factor with conditioning issues these days. When the collars are squishy then getting the ball through there with confidence in the outcome becomes iffy.
   How did you do with the "canyon effect"? Only 2 putts with major slope, are you kidding me, the whole course is a major slope!!   How many 3-putts did you have?
I hope you enjoyed the course, I know you had good company with Lynn.

[Matt_Cohn]

Ryan/Ed,

The lies were very tight. The green surrounds were virtually indistinguishable from the greens. I might as well have been on the green. I would never chip from on the green, so why would I chip from Rustic's surrounds?

In total, I had 11 putts of 40 feet or more; 8 putts of 60 feet or more. I found it to be repetitive.

(Ed - you're right, I wasn't hitting it well - making a swing change, and I hadn't played in 3 weeks.)

[Ryan Farrow]

Maybe you are just very unlucky. If you would have just kicked you ball 10 feet or so any way, you would have had some very interesting shots.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I understand what you are saying.  I can't tell from my one playing of RC what might happen over time, vs. the possible "luck of the draw" on recovery shots in one round, which would be the real test.

I think its possible that when any kind of feature becomes trendy - like short cut around the green - that it gets overused to provide relief (I think) from the ever present flop shot of rough, often associated with US Open courses.  But, it could possibly create a different monotony such as you describe.

I internally debate how many short cut green surrounds my courses should have.  For play variety over time, I suppose about nine greens should have rough and nine fw, no?  And then each of those should vary, from flattish to sloped to moguls, from uphill to downhill, etc., and even in locations relative to the green, like front right, back left, etc., so that over time, a repeat golfer would eventually experience lots of different recoveries.

The downside of that approach is that the course might not hang together visually, especially if the rough/fw holes were alternated too rigidly.  So, should one type of green surround dominate, say on about a 2:1 ratio to give a course some theme?

Its a tough question, but I do think that the trendy fw short cut has been overused, and may contribute to the sameness it was intended to alleviate.  Maybe the true answer is in the details, since it is possible to design chipping areas in a variety of ways that might suggest different shots than a putt, and perhaps moreso than variety you can get from rough.

[Adam Clayman]

I'm still processing my thoughts about Rustic Canyon, but here's one item.


 Of the 9 putts, only 2 had any major slopes involved.

I'll disagree that these types of shots are boring, especially at a place with as much deceptive ground movement as Rustic Canyon.

Figuring out those greens and surrounds was the real challenge/fun at RC.

Sorry to hear your were unaware of them.

Matt, Your description is void of the results of all those putts. How successful were you?

[Tom Huckaby]

I can't answer this as it specifically pertains to Rustic Canyon, as I haven't been there in several years.  Given other reports about that course's condition in recent times though, I'd say this is good news!  If it's that firm and fast that a great player like Matt Cohn feels he has no choice but to putt, to me that's a good thing - in general.

But Matt does bring up an issue discussed several years ago that believe it or not Rich Goodale and I agreed on.. and on which we were shouted down by pretty much everyone else, with as I recall George Pazin leading the way.

And that is, if a course is firm and fast, that's a good thing. That's the best way to play this game.  But if the green surrounds on a firm and fast course have little to impede one from rolling the ball on the ground - that is, no bunkers one must go over, no hollows or bumps or other ground issues that make the rolling shot too iffy, or anything else, well... in the end that does make the game LESS fun - as there is indeed LESS variety of shots to be played into such greens.  When the ground is very firm and fast, the margin of error for chipping or pitching shots is so tiny, it just makes logical sense to putt the ball or otherwise roll it with some low-lofted club.  Heck, remember Todd Hamilton hitting all those rolling chip shots at Troon with a hybrid?  That's just an elongated putt... In any event, the case Goodale and I made is that these are all basically the same shot; thus it's less variety, and less fun.  Oh it is a DIFFERENT shot from what most Americans are used to, so for us it's fun.... but once you've done it a bunch of times, the uniqueness ceases, as does the fun.  It's the same shot over and over again.

And I believe that is Matt's complaint about Rustic Canyon.

Again, I can't say as I agree with that, as I haven't been there in years, but when I was there, I sure found enough hazards and the like such that I wasn't constantly rolling the ball along the ground to the extent to make it boring.

But I do know courses can get this way... that's why the best FORCE you to get the ball up in the air from time to time... or otherwise go around a hazard and away from the hole.  Again you don't want EVERY shot to be forced this way, but if NONE are, it's boring.

So should I prepare to be shouted down again?  And Rich, are you here to help?

 

[Ken Moum]

So should I prepare to be shouted down again?  And Rich, are you here to help?

 

I agree completely. Repetition is boring, whether it's a succession of 50-yard putts or a succession of lob wedges out of rough to elevated greens.

I have never been near Rustic, but I suspect that repeat plays won't produce a repetition of the shots Matt describes. If they do, then you are right about the need for more "architecture" in the green surrounds.

Ken

[Tom Huckaby]

Ken:

Thanks.  You are one of few who grasps this simple concept.  The last time it was discussed, oh yes we were shouted down.

But you make a great point about repeat plays; and my recollection of Rustic is that indeed that it worked out as you suspect.

TH

[Jason Topp]

I think that Matt's perspective is a useful one.  I really like a putt as an option but prefer other factors, primarily slope, to weigh into the equation such that putting is not the only reasonable option.

[astavrides]

Matt,

You're absolutely right.  And that criticism has been made of RC before.  It has never bothered me that much though since I putt a lot better than I chip I think.  I still think it's a great place to play, especially for the money.

[David Stamm]

Matt, I know you are a much better player than I, but I don't know how one can tire of these shots....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just to play devil's advocate, and to answer "how could you get bored of that shot" I will ask:  Is it more fun to play putt recoveries, knowing you also have 25-35 putts on the greens or is it more fun to play wedge, bump and run, etc. rather than add to the number of putts per round?

Is putting out of fw grass that different a shot to warrant adding to the total number of putts you play per round vs. other clubs?

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, As someone who has gone from one side of this aspect to the other I find using a putter from off the green to be just as much fun, shot after shot, if warranted and the grounda allow it.  The old Texas wedge is still suggested as the best club choice, by the top teachers, when one has either a terrible lie, or, is uncomfortable trying to finese a wedge. When the grounds are undulating and the ground allows for it, on average your worst putt will be as close as your best chip. (low handicappers need not respond)

rather than add to the number of putts per round?

Jeff, You are aware that putts off the green do not count as putts, statisticaclly?

[Mike Benham]

A recap. Sorry, I think it was 8, not 9:

#1: 100 feet from long left to front pin; over moderate hill.
#3: 100 feet from long right; no major contours.
#6: 60 feet from short, through big swale.
#7: 40 feet, uphill, nothing unusual.
#10: 60 feet from short, almost dead flat.
#14: 40 feet from long-right to front pin; left-to-right break but nothing crazy.
#17: 60 feet from right fringe to center pin; about 3 feet of break.
#18: 60 feet from short to front pin; almost flat, about 2 feet of break.

Matt - I'm a little surprised that you missed the greens by so much

[Matt_Cohn]

Adam,

I left a lot of 5-10 footers - which was a combination of me being rusty; some minor misreads with the canyon effect; and the fact that these were all 60-100 foot putts that are just hard to get close anyway.

If I had it to do over again 20 times, I wouldn't chip any of those shots, not even once, because I agree with you that the putter is a smarter, safer choice.

[Matt_Cohn]

Mike,

At least 1, 3, and 10 were for eagle.  

But yeah, it wasn't a legendary ballstriking day on my part...

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Don't listen to Benham; he's just jealous.

But I have to ask, did I generalize your issues correctly?  

Forgot to answer one of your questions, btw:  yes putter from off the green is often the best and/or only choice at The Old Course, but it never gets boring there because:

a) there are so many humps and hollows that a more skilled player would indeed hit chip shots or pitches with spin; it's only us with lack of confidence in doing such off tight lies who would putt over some of the stuff one has to go over or through or around.  I'd guess you wouldn't use putter nearly as much at TOC.

b) the bunkers are ever-present and ever-penal and must be missed at all costs... but going around them is often not a choice, as you'd have to go sideways... so one is faced with many times one CAN'T really putt, even though the lie and/or one's lack of skill dictates such... so one BETTER learn to hit some crisp pitches from tight lies... one is going to face such.

TH

[astavrides]

I don't know that I would say that repeated putter from off the green is boring.  Just that it is not as good a test of ones all around game as when you have to play a variety of shots from around the green.  

[Tom Huckaby]

AS:

I'd say it's just part of the general rule that too much repetition of ANY part of this game can get to be boring - as KMoum so succinctly put it.

TH

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