[jeffwarne]

any other course rated in the top 10...
Are the ratings a good thing?

I remember the first time I played Pine Valley and the member had to change the date several times to find a tee time.
(and he was a former USGA President)
It was in 1992 which was somewhat near the time they went from a "first 10" to ranking by number (with PV #1)

I shudder every time Palmetto is mentioned here and certainly hope they never rank it the top 100 (no danger at the moment and it's barely in the top 20 in the state )

[wsmorrison]

A very interesting question, Jeff.  While I don't think ratings in general are a good thing, does it help a top-10 club in any way?  Not that I can think of at first consideration.  Hmmm....I'll have to get back to you on this.  I'm curious to hear what some of the rankers have to say.

[D_Malley]

i would have to think that these top 10 clubs seem to get alot more play in the member plus 3 guests category as opposed to foursomes with 4 members in them.  I know this is some thing that is true at PV and merion.

whether that is good or bad for the clubs i don't know, that would be something their members would have to answer.

The guest play income must be higher due to more guests and the ability to charge higher guest fees.

[jeffwarne]

Certainly Pine Valley doesn't need the income.

I'm not bemoaning the raters or the process, just saying being number one can make you a little more busy and on the radar screen than you might want to be and as a member of a couple of clubs, I wouldn't want either to be ranked at that level AFTER I joined. (my feeling is it would drive demand for guest play to excessive levels-as it appears to have done at Pine Valley in the early 90's-I don't know what it's like there now)

[Jim Franklin]

By the way, Pine Valley is the only course GD panelists are specifically told we cannot call for access. Not that that means anything to you guys.

[Cabell Ackerly]

By the way, Pine Valley is the only course GD panelists are specifically told we cannot call for access. Not that that means anything to you guys.

what happens when you call ANGC?

[Jim Franklin]

By the way, Pine Valley is the only course GD panelists are specifically told we cannot call for access. Not that that means anything to you guys.

what happens when you call ANGC?

They tell us we need to play with a member. A club does not have let us play ever, but we were told NOT to call PV. There are plenty of places that tell me that I need to find a member in order to play. Some places find a member for me, others say good luck.

[Bart Bradley]

I don't belong to a "Top 10" club but do belong to a Top 100.  I think the ratings do drive up the demand for guest play but that does subsidize the club and make more ammenities available to the membership.  It also helps to drive up the price of the surrounding real estate and the "value" of your equity membership.  I don't see how the ratings can hurt your club...if you are overrun by unwanted guests, raise the guest fees and this will slow guest play.

I actually enjoy sharing my course with visitors and I believe it adds to the vibrancy of the club as a whole.

Just my opinion.

Bart

[JC Jones]

I have to believe that, assuming its not impeding the members' ability to get tee times, that they would encourage guest play as the revenues keep dues down.  Not that many members of top 10/50/100 courses struggle to pay their dues.  But nobody likes an increase, regardless.

[John Kavanaugh]

Excessive guest play clowds the difference between public and private.

[JC Jones]

Excessive guest play clowds the difference between public and private.

Im sure the membership is aware of the very fine line and likely take that into consideration when extending the invitation to a guest.

[Bob_Huntley]

Excessive guest play clowds the difference between public and private.

Im sure the membership is aware of the very fine line and likely take that into consideration when extending the invitation to a guest.

John,

Amen.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Warne,

EVERYONE needs the income.

Some just need it more than others

[John Kavanaugh]

If you have to enter a lottery to get a tee time you are not a member of a private club.  If you think you are you might as well consider Pebble private being that only a select few individuals can afford to play there.

[George Pazin]

It's funny, John makes it sound like they're selling all the tee times to scrounge up some extra cash.

I'm naive enough to believe that the members of special courses probably host a lot of people because they simply want to share their special courses. If that means they have to deal with riff raff like me, they probably understand and accept it.

[JC Jones]

It's funny, John makes it sound like they're selling all the tee times to scrounge up some extra cash.

I'm naive enough to believe that the members of special courses probably host a lot of people because they simply want to share their special courses. If that means they have to deal with riff raff like me, they probably understand and accept it.

Having recently played a "special" course with a member who was happy to tell us the history and show us around and talk about the course, I also share in your naivety.  

Either that or he faked it better than my wife.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's funny, John makes it sound like they're selling all the tee times to scrounge up some extra cash.

I'm naive enough to believe that the members of special courses probably host a lot of people because they simply want to share their special courses. If that means they have to deal with riff raff like me, they probably understand and accept it.

What you do not want is weekend tee times of people hosting clients in an attempt to gain more business and thus make more money.  You can smell the difference between a group of friends and a group of marks a fairway away.  They also muck up the clubhouse with all their money talk.

[George Pazin]

John, I'll have to trust you on that one, lacking the requisite experience myself. My very limited exposure to private club members is that virtually all take pride in their clubs and simply enjoy sharing them; even you seem that way.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, I'll have to trust you on that one, lacking the requisite experience myself. My very limited exposure to private club members is that virtually all take pride in their clubs and simply enjoy sharing them; even you seem that way.

That is true of every club I am a member but I do know of private clubs that are simply tee time factories.

[jeffwarne]

I'll bet many members of Pine Valley don't like the rating system and the effect of being #1.
I've spoken to two in fact that don't (I only know 3 and I don't know the third's opinion) Perhaps they've been #1 so long the effect has diminished and maybe the members I knew have changed their minds as well.


There is a reason they tell rankers not to call after all.

A debate is kind've irrelevant unless a bunch of members of top 10 clubs weigh in.
Most top 100 clubs enjoy it as the effect is not the magnitude of being #1.

[Doug Siebert]

I don't belong to a "Top 10" club but do belong to a Top 100.  I think the ratings do drive up the demand for guest play but that does subsidize the club and make more ammenities available to the membership.  It also helps to drive up the price of the surrounding real estate and the "value" of your equity membership.  I don't see how the ratings can hurt your club...if you are overrun by unwanted guests, raise the guest fees and this will slow guest play.

I actually enjoy sharing my course with visitors and I believe it adds to the vibrancy of the club as a whole.

Just my opinion.

Bart

Surely what would hurt your club isn't when it makes its appearance in the top 100 or moves higher, but when it moves lower, either due to falling out of favor, getting a bit worn around the edges, or just too many better new courses getting all the attention.

If a course at 24 moves to 36, or a course at 84 moves to 98, I would expect that in at least some cases the outcome will be negative because some of the members will panic and think "something must be done" to bring it back.  After all, if a higher ranking means higher real estate and equity membership prices and more guest income, surely a lower ranking means the opposite and at least some people will be of the opinion that whatever can be done to raise that ranking must be done, regardless of the expense, disruption to the course, or loss of architectural purity (define that phrase however you want)

[Jim Franklin]

When GD changed their rating process (dropped the Tradition points) our club went from 55 to out. Panic ensued and we started making changes and tried to get a tournament. Lo and behold, we just had the Seniors Players Championship. Is it good for the club? It is not good for me. I can't play the course when it is playing at its peak. There is no real estate to sell and no equity in the membership. Its about pride I guess. I love my course and think it is easily in the Top 100, but I want to play it and not somewhere else in the city.

[jeffwarne]

Jim,
To say nothing of the time you might miss while the changes are made.
I do get that clubs might want to stay in the Top 100, particularly if they want to increase guest revenue,or just pride.
But those things can come at a price. (tee times, rangers, less club cameraderie with multiple member-3 guest groups,)

But as Jim states I've  joined a club to play golf ,not boost my self esteem, and most "changes" I've seen at clubs are precisely why they have to be later restored.

[George Pazin]

But as Jim states I've  joined a club to play golf ,not boost my self esteem...

Unfortunately in today's world that makes you a minority.

[corey miller]

 I like the ratings and care about them to the extent that ratings memorialize well thought-out changes to course archtiecture.

It would seem the Plainfields, and Fenways of the world should be happy and either continue down the same path with thier consulting architect or seek to not make any other changes.

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