What are the Slam Dunks?

« **on:** October 04, 2007, 01:24:39 PM »

How many course are 'musts' for a list of the worlds best cources? I came up with 33. Do you think any should be added or removed?

1. St Andrews (Old)
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Sand Hills
4. Royal County Down
5. Cypess Point
6. Pacific Dunes
7. Pine Valley
8. NGLA
9. Merion
10. Pebble Beach
11. Ballybunion
12. Shinnecock Hills
13. Royal Melbourne (West)
14. Muirfield
15.Crystal Downs
16. Pinehurst No. 2
17. North Berwick
18. Royal Portrush
19. Prairie Dunes
20. Ballyneal
21.Winged Foot (West)
22. Augusta National
23. Pasatiempo
24.Turnberry (Ailsa)
25. Carnoustie (Championship
26. Oakmont
27. Kapalua Plantation
28. The Ocean Course at Kiawah
29. Bandon Trails
30. Riviera
31. Barnbougle Dunes
32. Cape Kidnappers
33. Banff Springs

« **Reply #1 on:** October 04, 2007, 01:39:33 PM »

Matthew,
You started out strong, but by the end you were getting a bit repetitive. I certainly wouldn't put any course that is only a year or so old onto a list like this.

I would say Kapalua Plantation and Bandon Trails are a bit of a stretch to be included in such rarefied company.

Also, what is it about Turnberry and Carnoustie that puts them ahead of the rest of the rota? TOC is a different category.

Just some thoughts.

« **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:25:08 PM »

Matthew, I think you have a very good point here. It was recently described to me, through a trusted and reputable source, that there are only a small handful of great courses in the world. 33 sounds just about right. The next level is of course, very good golf courses.

« **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:27:53 PM »

Ask all the members of the tree house to name their favorite 33 courses (do you drink Rolling Rock?) and list the ones that are on every list. That should be insightful.

« **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:39:03 PM »

The 30-35 No-Brainers/Slam Dunks idea is an old one, first voiced by Pete Dye, I think. I agree with it and have compared those courses to 3*** Michelin restaurants, many times on this board. Matthew's list comes, if I am not mistaken, from his exercise a few months ago that asked us all to list our top 10 courses. As a result, it is biased towards courses that all of us have a chance to play (i.e. pay for play courses, GBI "private" courses). As ed says, the list gets goofier as the numbers get higher. I'd guess that only 1/2 of the 33 would get 3*** based on my standards. In fact, in thinking of this issue a month or so ago, I found that once I got past the top 20-25 I started to get into Doak 8-9 territory, at least in my opinion. There are probably only 20 Slam Dunks out there in the world, but nobody will ever agree of which courses they are.

« **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:54:11 PM »

Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on October 04, 2007, 02:39:03 PM

The 30-35 No-Brainers/Slam Dunks idea is an old one, first voiced by Pete Dye, I think. I agree with it and have compared those courses to 3*** Michelin restaurants, many times on this board. Matthew's list comes, if I am not mistaken, from his exercise a few months ago that asked us all to list our top 10 courses. As a result, it is biased towards courses that all of us have a chance to play (i.e. pay for play courses, GBI "private" courses). As ed says, the list gets goofier as the numbers get higher. I'd guess that only 1/2 of the 33 would get 3*** based on my standards. In fact, in thinking of this issue a month or so ago, I found that once I got past the top 20-25 I started to get into Doak 8-9 territory, at least in my opinion. There are probably only 20 Slam Dunks out there in the world, but nobody will ever agree of which courses they are.

Rich

If anything, I think you have overestimated the 3*s. I would be happy to play one in my lifetime cuz it would surprise me if there are as many as 12. I reckon I haven't even played that many 2*s - maybe 12 tops, but I am gaining experience. The trouble is, the older I get, the less impressed I am by places.

BTW I have taken to your Michelin ripoff system.

Ciao

« **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2007, 03:17:30 PM »

Quote from: Matthew Hunt on October 04, 2007, 01:24:39 PM

How many course are 'musts' for a list of the worlds best cources? I came up with 33. Do you think any should be added or removed?

1. St Andrews (Old)
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Sand Hills
4. Royal County Down
5. Cypess Point
6. Pacific Dunes
7. Pine Valley
8. NGLA
9. Merion

11. Ballybunion
12. Shinnecock Hills
13. Royal Melbourne (West)

15.Crystal Downs

18. Royal Portrush
19. Prairie Dunes

21.Winged Foot (West)
22. Augusta National

25. Carnoustie (Championship
26. Oakmont

30. Riviera

« **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2007, 03:26:15 PM »

Jasper?
Highland Links?

Bethpage Black?

« **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2007, 03:56:34 PM »

Prestwick and Cruden Bay, or the entire list is invalidated for lack of taste . . . . .

« **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2007, 04:09:11 PM »

Not that I have any clue how good they are, but I'd have thought you'd have some English courses on the list, like Sunningdale, Swinley Forest, Rye or Sandwich.

At least you have my #1, as well as my #1 wish list.

Quote

Somebody's buckin' for a promotion. Must be that petterass, Hannrahan.
- Fletch

« **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2007, 04:30:14 PM »

I would put the Olympic Club in the top 25 and Spyglass Hill in the top 30.

« **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2007, 04:54:54 PM »

Matthew:

My old book had a dozen courses rated at "10" and about 10-20 more rated at "9" -- I'd have to go back and count those. Add the handful of courses from the last ten years which fit -- Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes for sure, I'm not sure if Barnbougle or Ballyneal are slam dunks yet, anyway -- and your number is close to right. Most of the courses which I rated "8" should make the top 100, but there would be some disagreement about all of them.

« **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2007, 06:56:12 PM »

Tom, of the dozen courses you gave 10 how many were Open Championship Rota courses other than the Old Course and which ones were they?

« **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2007, 02:11:02 AM »

Quote from: mbbradley on October 04, 2007, 06:56:12 PM

Tom, of the dozen courses you gave 10 how many were Open Championship Rota courses other than the Old Course and which ones were they?

1 - Muirfield

Ciao

« **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2007, 03:56:22 AM »

Quote from: Jason Topp on October 04, 2007, 03:17:30 PM

Quote from: Matthew Hunt on October 04, 2007, 01:24:39 PM
How many course are 'musts' for a list of the worlds best cources? I came up with 33. Do you think any should be added or removed?

1. St Andrews (Old)
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Sand Hills
4. Royal County Down
5. Cypess Point
6. Pacific Dunes
7. Pine Valley
8. NGLA
9. Merion

11. Ballybunion
12. Shinnecock Hills
13. Royal Melbourne (West)

15.Crystal Downs

18. Royal Portrush
19. Prairie Dunes

21.Winged Foot (West)
22. Augusta National

25. Carnoustie (Championship
26. Oakmont

30. Riviera

Carnoustie stays in but not Muirfield? Guess that shows how subjective these things are. Much as Ilike Carnoustie it's a clear step (or two) down from Muirfield for me. Is your rating based on playing both courses?

« **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2007, 02:44:11 PM »

I better more consise list would probably look as follows:

1. St Andrews (Old)
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Sand Hills
4. Royal County Down
5. Cypess Point
6. Pacific Dunes
7. Pine Valley
8. NGLA
9. Merion
10. Riviera
11. Ballybunion
12. Shinnecock Hills
13. Royal Melbourne (West)
15.Crystal Downs
16. Royal Portrush
17. Prairie Dunes
18.Winged Foot (West)
19. Augusta National
20. Muirfield
21. Carnoustie (Championship
22. Oakmont

« **Reply #16 on:** October 07, 2007, 09:21:02 PM »

I think Baltusrol makes the top 20.

But its easy to put courses in, taking them out is the hard part...

« **Reply #17 on:** October 07, 2007, 11:48:11 PM »

Matthew

There's no such thing as a "slam dunk" as you put it as someone once said the only "certainties" in life - are death and taxes

Only 2 from Australia ? You obviously haven't been over here

« **Reply #18 on:** October 08, 2007, 02:01:04 PM »

As one who once lost a large bet on a high school game featuring the Tooler Twins, I'm reminded that "nothing is ever dead solid perfect."

Accordingly, would someone be shouted down in suggesting that Pacific Dunes is not a slam dunk with the primary contention being that the opener and closing four holes are nothing special?

Would such an opinion warrant being banned from this site?

Mike

« **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2007, 02:04:50 PM »

Michael:

Would you be shouted down? Most likely. There is a lot of love for Pacific Dunes in this forum.

But banning from the site, that's too harsh.

I will say this: I think each of 16 and 17 at PD are truly great golf holes. I can see the "nothing special" tag being given to 15 and 18 - though I personally think each is pretty cool, I can understand an opposing viewpoint. 1 is debatable also.

But 16 and 17, that has me scratching my head. I guess the complaint about 16 is that all balls funnel into the same few places, causing playing out of divots too much? I can see that... but that doesn't lessen the greatness of the hole for me.

17 I can't think of a complaint about.

TH

« **Reply #20 on:** October 08, 2007, 07:05:17 PM »

Huck,

I think 15 is a very solid hole, and I'm with you on 16 and 17...but 18 as nothing special? You've got to be crazy.

18 was one of my favorites on the course and its a damn unique par 5 with one two of the most gnarly fairway and greenside bunkers that I've ever seen. And while it can be reached in two with two excellent shots, it still requires 3 well placed solid shots to be on the green in regulation.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 09, 2007, 10:53:12 AM »

Quote from: Mark Pearce on October 05, 2007, 03:56:22 AM

Quote from: Jason Topp on October 04, 2007, 03:17:30 PM
Quote from: Matthew Hunt on October 04, 2007, 01:24:39 PM
How many course are 'musts' for a list of the worlds best cources? I came up with 33. Do you think any should be added or removed?

1. St Andrews (Old)
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Sand Hills
4. Royal County Down
5. Cypess Point
6. Pacific Dunes
7. Pine Valley
8. NGLA
9. Merion

11. Ballybunion
12. Shinnecock Hills
13. Royal Melbourne (West)

15.Crystal Downs

18. Royal Portrush
19. Prairie Dunes

21.Winged Foot (West)
22. Augusta National

25. Carnoustie (Championship
26. Oakmont

30. Riviera

Carnoustie stays in but not Muirfield? Guess that shows how subjective these things are. Much as Ilike Carnoustie it's a clear step (or two) down from Muirfield for me. Is your rating based on playing both courses?

Mark:

I have played Carnoustie twice but not Muirfield. In my view, to be a slam dunk, a course has to, without reasonable dispute, be considered a great golf course. I have heard enough dissent about Muirfield to take it off the list. Carnoustie probably needs to come off the list as well.

If the list were based on my own experiences

1. Sand Hills
2. Royal Melbourne (West)
3. St Andrews (Old)
4. Ballybunion
5. Lahinch
6. Kingston Heath
7. Prestwick
8. Pacific Dunes

« **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2007, 10:58:22 AM »

Quote from: Kalen Braley on October 08, 2007, 07:05:17 PM

Huck,

I think 15 is a very solid hole, and I'm with you on 16 and 17...but 18 as nothing special? You've got to be crazy.

18 was one of my favorites on the course and its a damn unique par 5 with one two of the most gnarly fairway and greenside bunkers that I've ever seen. And while it can be reached in two with two excellent shots, it still requires 3 well placed solid shots to be on the green in regulation.

Note I said I personally think 18 is pretty cool; I can just understand it being given a "nothing special" tag sooner than 16 or 17.

So if anyone is crazy, it's my friend Mike.

I just tend to understand craziness more than others.

In any case, 18 is a difficult hole for sure.... but in terms of the world's great golf courses - which this is a discussion of - I can just see someone saying it doesn't stand out. In the end it's typically a layup type drive (just stay right of blowout), then whatever one wants on 2nd shot (just stay straight), the whatever's left on the third (just miss front death bunker). While the bunkers are fabulous and the green is very cool and the shots required are all difficult, there's little strategy involved - it's all quite penal. So if strategy is one's bag, then that whole could be given the "nothing special" tag in the context of the world's great courses.

Note I don't nceessarily agree with all that, I just don't find it completely crazy.

TH

« **Reply #23 on:** October 09, 2007, 11:42:20 AM »

I would add San Francisco GC, Prairie Dunes or St. Georges in Toronto

Drop: Winged Foot ; Augusta, in current state, is borderline

« **Reply #24 on:** October 09, 2007, 11:43:57 AM »

No love for Seminole? (Haven't played it, but by reputation I'd think it would be in this discussion.)

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