[Mike Golden]

Amazingly enough the 'MacKenzie lost it' thread got me thinking about how my thoughts on Golf Courses have evolved over the years.

I've played golf for over 40 years but, until about 10 years ago, had no clue about golf course design.  All I knew was whether I liked a course or not (and some would say I am still at that point ).

I started playing golf on full length courses in the mid 60's on New York City Public courses like Silver Lake, LaTourette, and Dyker Beach, and Forest Park.  LaTourette was clearly the best golf course and, of course, years later I found that it was designed by a Golden Age architect (as was Dyker Beach, I suppose but it had been greatly modified over the years).

In the early 70's I started playing Bethpgage Black and fell in love with the golf course.  I knew nothing of Tillinghast until years later but knew this was a great golf course-heroic, fun to play, and tough.

In 1983, while spending some time in Scotland on business, I had the opportunity to play both TOC (2X) plus the New Course, Gleneagles Queens, and one of the local courses near Glenrothes.  I greatly enjoyed each and every round in Scotland for both the speed of play (Gleneagles Queens on a Sunday mid morning in 3 hours and 10 minutes) and the history of the golf courses.  TOC was a thrill because of what is stood for historically (and a caddy who led me around the golf course by my nose) but, except for the caddy's instructions, I knew nothing about why the strategy existed or was important.  All I knew was that, when I asked the caddy why I was hitting my tee shot way left once instead of straight, he said 'there's Hell out there, laddie'.

After moving to California in the mid-80's and playing Pasatiempo a few times I also developed a deep appreciation for it and again, knew nothing of MacKenzie (I didn't even have a clue about who designed Cypress Point).

Page forward to the mid-90's and my introduction to architecture through The Emperor, Bill Vostinak, Dan King and many others and all of a sudden the commonalities of these courses (great Golden Age architects) became apparent, as did an appreciation for the classical elements of design.

I know many of you have a much more direct path to understanding and appreciating golf course architecture, mine is much more circuitous.  But it's been a very interesting experience and, even though I'll always be, as Bill McBride likes to say, 'a scorecard and pencil guy' at heart, I now have something else to think about other than how bad my putting stroke is as I walk (not ride) around the golf course.

Anyone else interested in sharing their personal evolution?

[George Pazin]

Mine's less interesting, no surprise.

Just got into golf about 10 years ago. As I was learning to play (poorly), I started reading golf books - first instruction books, then general interest books, then history, bios, etc. Eventually I read the tremendous The Captain by Geoff Shackelford and Pete Dye's Bury Me In A Bunker - they caused me to take a closer look at golf courses. Played Tobacco Road after it showed up on the Golf Mag's Top 10 You Can Play, searched for more info on Mike Strantz, found his interview on here, then joined up.

The biggest eye opener for me was the summer of 2003, spending every day at Oakmont during the Amateur. Then watching the US Open at Shinney, seeing Pat Brockwell's keen observation (my tagline), and a little thinking got me roughly where I am today.

Told you it was less interesting.

[Rich Goodale]

After 50 years of playing golf, I'm not sure if there actually is any such thing as "Golf Architecture."  I'm going to think about this and follow this thread for a few days before I try to express some thoughts.

[Tom Huckaby]

This is too funny.  When I read the thread title, and Mike's post, my first thought was:  "I have none yet, pretty much because I don't think the concept really exists."

So I guess I'll just wait and see what Rich says, as he's likely to express this way better than I can!

But my main thought is the term can be defined in so many different ways depending on what one personally values, it's tough to say just want one has any "appreciation" of, as we'll never agree on the term.  Rich is likely thinking of this differently... it will be interesting to see.

TH

[Ken Moum]

I think I first started to think a lot about architecture when my wife gave me a copy of Driving the Green.

Before that I paid some attention to the design elements of courses, and sometimes thought about how they worked--or didn't work. But it wasn't top of mind.

Then I got "Anatomy of a Golf Course" and I realized there was even more going on than I had thought. Followed by "Spirit of St Andrews" and "Golf Has Never Failed Me."

The book that influenced me the most was probably Shackelford's "Grounds for Golf," because he encourages the reader to look at courses with the specific goal of figuring out what they like and don't like.

Although I rarely get to play the great courses, it's made me a lot less tolerant of some of the crappy ones I have played.

Ken

[TEPaul]

"After 50 years of playing golf, I'm not sure if there actually is any such thing as "Golf Architecture."  I'm going to think about this....

Farnsworth:

Don't bother. It could never produce anything other than more of your usual nihilistic Devil's Advocate ramblings.  

[TEPaul]

Mike Golden:

The way most of the contributors are on here, why don't we just start right now and debate the definition of golf, the definition of architecture and then the definition of golf architecture for about fifty pages first before we get around to considering your question and answering it?  

Oh, I forgot, after that initial fify page definitional debate we'll probably need to discuss with Farnsworth for about five pages whether or not any of those things actually exist.

[TEPaul]

My personal golf architecture timeline of awareness is pretty simple and I've put it on here before.

It started about ten years ago and after about 20 years of playing golf, almost always tournament golf and very little recreational golf. In those years I had no interest in golf architecture, maybe even no thought of it. I was just trying to play as good as I could and that was it.

My club got offered a proposal to move to a site that was just remarkable (hereinafter known as the Ardrossan Farm Project).

When I first heard about it I was told the club wasn't interested. I said I thought they should at least consider it because of the thorough uniqueness of the site. So they told me to do it for them.

I didn't know the first thing about golf course architecture so I went down to Barnes and Nobles and picked out a book on golf architecture. It was Shackelford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design".

Before I read through the book I called Rees Jones who I'd known through golf and he sent his associate Keith Evans down to look at the site.

I finished Shackelford's book and in the back of the loose-leave cover I noticed his email address so I emailed him explaining my situation. He said to get in touch with Coore and Crenshaw out of Austin Texas.

And so I did. The corn was getting too high at Ardrossan and so I waited for about six months for it to come down and at some point in the late fall I picked up Bill Coore who I'd never met or heard of before at the Philly airport, he stayed with me for a few days as we walked and walked Ardrossan Farm for 2-3 whole days.

And from that my complete addiction to the subject of golf course architecture began.

I'm a big beiiever in what I call "the small increments of fate".

There is no question, in my mind, none, that if Geoff Shackelford had not thought to put his email address on the back of that loose-leaf book cover, there is probably no way at all I'd have given golf architecture a first or second thought for the rest of my life.

But it just goes the way it goes, I guess.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike Golden:

The way most of the contributors are on here, why don't we just start right now and debate the definition of golf, the definition of architecture and then the definition of golf architecture for about fifty pages first before we get around to considering your question and answering it?  

Oh, I forgot, after that initial fify page definitional debate we'll probably need to discuss with Farnsworth for about five pages whether or not any of those things actually exist.

TEP - I see where you're going against Farnsworth, and it's funny to read.

But note my post above is sincere.  Not that I want to debate the meanings of terms - oh good lord far far far from it.  But I do think they mean so many different things to different people that there really is no good answer to this question.

For example, I will say this:  I know way more about golf courses and the people who design them now than I did 15 years ago.  But I truly believe I know LESS about golf course architecture, as that term is commonly defined on this site.  How than can be possible is why I don't think I can truly answer Mike's question.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Architecture is that great living creative spirit which from generation to generation, from age to age, proceeds, persists, creates, according to the nature of man, and his circumstances as they change. That is really architecture."-Frank Lloyd Wright

Mike,
 NW Connecticut has lots of hills so I don't think I played a 'flat' course until I was in my thirties. Terrain, and how it affects play, probably was my first lesson. My second came the first time I played Yale, about 1986 or '87. That was a trip. I had been playing at Hotchkiss School GC, so I got a lesson in scale. Somewhere in there is a book or few about construction, architecture, etc., but my 'real' third lesson came from George Bahto, and it was about passion.

It has all led to my belief that 'good' architecture comes from  respecting the game, the ground it's played over, the work of those who came before, and having the imagination and willingness to be flexible going forward. Passionately, of course.

[Adam Clayman]

There was a combination of moments when everything clicked which led to a desire to learn more.

One day caddying, I caught myself fixated on the natural beauty of the left greenside bunker on the 16th at Spanish Bay (that condition nle), And around that same time (1998-99), reading a sentenece written on the very first page of this website, about natural settings. I had one of those flash back memory reels of all the examples I had ever seen.

The sentence was " If you enjoy golf in a natural setting, we think you'll enjoy this site. "

Now, I enjoy almost all my golf in the most natural of settings.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In summer of 1967, at age 12:

First round of golf, with neighbor who belongs to Medinah, I play Medinah No. 3, sneaking on on a monday with him.  Majestic course with history and maintenance. I fell in love with golf courses, just the whole feel of them.

A week later, now hooked on golf, second round of golf with my father at Rob Roy nine hole adjucnt course in Mt. Prospect, IL.  A basic learners course, few bunkers, weedy greens.

Even at age 12, I could tell the difference!

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam and Jeff's responses illustrate what I am trying to get at here... and I really don't mean to be contrarian, it's just that this is a lot more difficult for me than others, I guess.

See, as I read those, I see each talking about how they became aware of GOLF COURSES... but nothing about how they became aware of GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE... and to me these are two very different things....

Oh well.  I guess it's just me.  This really needn't be so hard.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

"This really needn't be so hard." -TH

No kidding.  

 

All it takes is curiosity.

[Tom Huckaby]

Yeah but Jim, curious I am, most definitely.

This tends to make me MORE confused... asking about the terms... what they really mean... how they effect the playing of the game, which to me is what it's all about...

If anything I am TOO curious.

A simpler way would be to just say this:

Starting at about six years old, I began watching golf tournaments with my Dad.  The sites looked really neat to me... and I noticed right away how one was different from another.  Then I'd hear the announcers say the ball was near the cup... or in the cup... and I just had to know what kinda cup that was, that could hold a stick in it?  So I begged my Dad to take me to a course.  I must say I was impressed by the surroundings, but disappointed in what the cup actually was, which of course wasn't a cup at all.  Still, it made me want to see more and different golf courses... the differences between them being really interesting to me.

So does this mean at age 6-8 I became aware of golf course architecture?  I surely don't think so.... but by the answers so far, one could say I was....

TH

[Kirk Gill]

My grandmother lived in Upper Arlington, Ohio, just outside of Columbus. Jack Nicklaus grew up near there, and I think I latched onto golf because of that. Had a "Upper Arlington Golden Bears" sweater. Had a burger at the Nicklaus family drugstore. Was a toe-head with a decent-looking swing, right from the start.

Back here in Colorado, my first set of clubs (Wilson Billy Casper Signature!) took me to Indian Tree Golf Course while in the fifth grade, where I learned to play, and then on to Willis Case Golf Course, which I started to compare to the courses I'd see the guys playing on tv. It was the differences (and occasional similarities) between the courses I got to play and the ones I saw on tv that first made me think about what it took to make a course. Started seeing golf holes everywhere, even out the window on long drives back and forth to Ohio every summer. Got a copy of the World Atlas of Golf, and began dreaming of Pine Valley. No one gave a damn then, or now, about my opinions, or about those dreams, but they were persistent, and they live on. I don't care much about how I score (except for the occasional spasm of embarrasment), but I love "interacting with the architecture," as Mr. Mucci so succinctly puts it.

[Adam Clayman]

See, as I read those, I see each talking about how they became aware of GOLF COURSES... but nothing about how they became aware of GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE... and to me these are two very different things....

Huck, You are being something...  if all you got from my post is about gc's you really missed the boat. Or, in this case the bunker, nothing about courses in general.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

No, I get what you are saying; I was just attempting not to get TOO deep about this... trying to be brief and thus using your post and Jeff's as quick examples.

But my questions remain.  As you look at it, you became aware of golf course architecture in the manner described in that post.  But depending on how one defines that term, you may or may not have.

I just do continue to believe we all have different definitions of that term... and thus it makes it very difficult for me to give a simple answer to Mike's question.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Clintonian processies have invaded your already fickle nature on the subject. It depends on your definition??? The fact that all our educational timelines began when we first saw a GC up close, is probably true. From there we either learn more about the game, ourselves, and the fields upon which we spend all this time and money, or we don't. In your case, I would recommend several sessions with our Dr. Katz, after hearing of your initial disappointment. You're an interesting study lad.

I had played alot of courses before I came to my own realizations, in the example given above. I never read a book about it.

Thinking back, 9 years before I had my above stated epiphany, I used to query people about courses to go and play when travelling. Sometimes, the deciding factor had zero to with golf, and had to do with the opinion expressed on anther subject. That way, I'd have insight into the persons credibility and taste.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

I agree that I am likely making this WAY deeper than it has to be.

But you said it yourself - the real basic answer to this is the first time we saw a course up close - which is exactly as I described it in one of my posts here.

But is an answer that simple really what we're after here?

I think we want more... and if we do want more, then yes, it really depends on how one defines the term.  And I have a feeling Goodale and I define it quite differently than most here.... and likely differently from each other as well!

In any case, please do understand that in no way shape or form am I trying to denigrate the experiences or knowledge of you or anyone on this thread.  No, I am more trying to get a grasp on my OWN take on all of this.... which is weird to say the least.

TH

[Pat Brockwell]

My GCA awakening was concurrent with my becoming aware of strategy in golf. I remember as a 13 year old caddie my man making an observation about which side of the fairway was a better miss and the light popped on in my little head. Before that I was just aiming at the stick and swinging hard.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In summer of 1967, at age 12:

First round of golf, with neighbor who belongs to Medinah, I play Medinah No. 3, sneaking on on a monday with him.  Majestic course with history and maintenance. I fell in love with golf courses, just the whole feel of them.

A week later, now hooked on golf, second round of golf with my father at Rob Roy nine hole adjucnt course in Mt. Prospect, IL.  A basic learners course, few bunkers, weedy greens.

Even at age 12, I could tell the difference!

The Monster Nine!!

Holy Cow, I wasn't sure anybody else on this board had ever heard of, let alone played, the Monster Nine.  It was a short par 35:

1.  260 par 4 (driveable, downhill)

2.  320 par 4 (pond right)

3.  340 par 4

4.  160 par 3 (long was dead)

5.  370 par 4 (tons of room left, trees right)

6.  350 par 4 (OB left, uphill)

7.  can't remember distance par 3 (creek short?)

8.  450 par 5 (with a centerline bunker for second shots)

9.  390 par 4  

 

Jeff, that is AWESOME that you've played the Monster.  That was where the St. Viator frosh/soph team played their matches.  Do you remember this?:  it was $3, all you can play on Mondays.

Shiv,

They must have changed the routing between times you and I played. Actually, only the one par 3 seems out of whack, as I recall 3 and 5 as the par 3's with 5 being longer, and 3 having a heart shaped green. That was my first birdie!  I can't recall a pond anywhere....but its not exactly a memorable course!

I also recall 8 being the par 5 with the center bunkers, and that was the scene of my oddest golf moment.  Having asked to play through an older couple and trying to rush, my buddy and I both hit our seconds from opposite sides of the fw, and the two shots actually collided in mid air!

Killian re-did the entire facility into a 9 hole exec  within housing which still exists, but it will always be a fond memory.  Do we know who designed the original 18 holes?  I thought they were pretty solid for flatland prairie.

[Tom Yost]

I'm sure as an analytical and discriminating person, I gradually became aware of the differences in courses and holes and strategy in my formative years, but to keep this simple, I'll say that my Golf Architecture Timeline of Awareness (TM) began sometime in the early-mid 90's when I picked up a copy of Cornish & Whitten's "The Golf Course."

I should also state that an important entry on the timeline would be made early this year when I discovered GolfClubAtlas.com.


Tom

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shiv ,

Whitten lists Rob Roy as Ed Dearie, Jr., but has Diddel listed for Rolling Hills.

No listing for Old Orchard, one of my faves as a kid, but their website says the Wickersham family established it in 1932 (golf link says 1939) and says its designed by "Wickersham". I think that always had a different look to it.  Another family (Newman) bought it in 1950 and was probably responsible for the clubhouse, since it looks like that era of modern design.

I found some old notes I made in the Golf Course, and Chevy Chase was listed as Bendelow, but I felt the greens were the same as Rob Roy, and thought (circa 1980) that Dearie probably also did CC.

[Steve Lang]

 

g: 1961

gca-milepost1: Summer 1964 at Monroe, Mi CC.. Ross Course, what's so great about it?  I like'd Ottawa Park Better..

gca-milepost2: Summer 1968, playing Inverness in twilight.. how about another par4 Donald!!

gca-milepost3: Spring 1980 in Southern Pines, NC .. First Sunday 36 at SPCC, wow, make me really have to think Donald!!

gca-milepost4: Sep 1996, keeping it left to stay away from anything with a name at TOC.. 3 putting several times and still carding a 77 in mild winds

gca-milepost5: Summer 2001, msu extension service gca course at Boyne Mt.

gca-milepost6: Dec 2003, gca.com 30th Parallel Gang Outing (whispering pines, blaketree nat'l)

gca-milepost7: Summer 2004, gca.com Alberta Tour (banff, jasper, blackhawk, and where scotland meets canada)

gca-milepost8: Fall 2005, gca.com Land of Enchantment Tour (black mesa, kp ridge)
 

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