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Jon Wiggett

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Are we part of the problem?
« on: September 27, 2007, 03:17:29 PM »
There have been endless threads about how horrible technology is ruining the GCA of many of our great courses. The question is while we all moan about the ball travelling further which is something we can't alter as you can't buy 1985 Titliest 384 PTS or Penfold Aces in any great quantity we can still do something about the clubs.

So hands up, who is still playing those Keyhole Macs or even the big headed Ping Eye laminated???

I ask this because I played with an old favourite persimmon driver from the early 80's, my Mizuno SPL 3 wood and my Maxfli Australian Blades last week for the first time in ages. I had more fun than I have had playing golf in a long time.
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JESII

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Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 03:22:06 PM »
Guessing there was nothing on the line?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 03:28:49 PM by JES II »
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007, 03:22:20 PM »
Get older and the problem will solve itself.
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 03:22:35 PM »
Oh, and to answer your question...yes we are...
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2007, 03:23:51 PM »
Jon:

This or questions like it have been asked on here many times.  

The bottom line is that you have to look VERY hard to find a complete traditionalist/purist in here in terms of eqipment choice.  Oh there are some, but they are few and far between.

And I think this is normal.  As nice as it is to think about playing with the old stuff, and as fun as it is as a change of pace, in the end most of us still do compete, one way or the other.  And this game remains hard enough without giving one's opponents, or the course, such a huge advantage.

I have a set of hickories and I do play with them from time to time and it is fun.  I also still have persimmon woods and old bladey irons, and that too is fun.

But it's suicide if I use that stuff in competition, obviously.

And most rounds do have some competitive aspect to them.

TH
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Jon Wiggett

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Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 03:34:47 PM »
Tom,

I agree with your point of view but the question that still nags me is 'why do we play the game? for fun or for the competition?' if it is for fun......

John,

I play less than 20 years ago, I hit the ball worse than 20 years ago, I am swinging the club worse but I am 30 yards longer with the modern club. Up until now it ain't solving itself :-\. I have to add I think the solution is probably not to go back to percies but rather knock 20 % off the ball.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 03:38:25 PM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on September 27, 2007, 03:34:47 PM
Tom,

I agree with your point of view but the question that still nags me is 'why do we play the game? for fun or for the competition?' if it is for fun......

John,

I play less than 20 years ago, I hit the ball worse than 20 years ago, I am swinging the club worse but I am 30 yards longer with the modern club. Up until now it ain't solving itself :-\. I have to add I think the solution is probably not to go back to percies but rather knock 20 % off the ball.

Why am I the only one getting worse and shorter as I age.  I am 47 and have played since 1968...I do not now hit the ball as far as I did in 1976 when I could drive 3 greens at my home course that I can no longer reach.  This is true even this year in the worst of droughts.
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 03:41:25 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on September 27, 2007, 03:38:25 PM
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on September 27, 2007, 03:34:47 PM
Tom,

I agree with your point of view but the question that still nags me is 'why do we play the game? for fun or for the competition?' if it is for fun......

John,

I play less than 20 years ago, I hit the ball worse than 20 years ago, I am swinging the club worse but I am 30 yards longer with the modern club. Up until now it ain't solving itself :-\. I have to add I think the solution is probably not to go back to percies but rather knock 20 % off the ball.

Why am I the only one getting worse and shorter as I age.  I am 47 and have played since 1968...I do not now hit the ball as far as I did in 1976 when I could drive 3 greens at my home course that I can no longer reach.  This is true even this year in the worst of droughts.

Have you considered HGH?
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Brent Hutto

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 03:43:14 PM »
John K,

Perhaps the people who have gotten longer were using mushy Balata balls back in the day and you weren't.

Or maybe they didn't deliver the club squarely to the ball back then and you did.

I would suggest as a third alternative explanation that maybe you've gotten old and fat but the last time we attended an event together you were looking great so I know that ain't it.
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Bill Shamleffer

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Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 03:44:21 PM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on September 27, 2007, 03:17:29 PM

So hands up, who is still playing those Keyhole Macs or even the big headed Ping Eye laminated???


All of my clubs are over 20 years old, and my woods are all wood.

During the prior 20 years I have used newer cavity back irons and metal drivers.  I suppose that I could score better with new equipment.  (I also suppose a hike in the woods or up a small mountain would be completed quicker on a Segway than on my own two feet.)  I enjoy the challenge of trying to play the shots required from this equipment and trying to recover from my mistakes.

I have no issue with others wanting to play the equipment they choose, no matter if it is hickory or the latest technology.  Although, it does bother me that if my driver ever becomes unplayable, there are only a couple of companies still making persimmon drivers, and they are forced to charge quite a bit due to the small demand.  (I should probably by some old persimmons at Play It Again Sports and get them refinished now before that skill also disappears.)
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“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

John Kavanaugh

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2007, 03:47:46 PM »
Quote from: Brent Hutto on September 27, 2007, 03:43:14 PM
John K,

Perhaps the people who have gotten longer were using mushy Balata balls back in the day and you weren't.

Or maybe they didn't deliver the club squarely to the ball back then and you did.

I would suggest as a third alternative explanation that maybe you've gotten old and fat but the last time we attended an event together you were looking great so I know that ain't it.

Brent,

I gained most of my weight back when some idiot Doctor (not the rater or turf kind) falsely told me I had cancer.  I thought I would fatten myself up for chemo treatments and then damn it all...I didn't have the big C after all.  That picture of me at Mid-Pines makes my wife cry.

Being old and fat does not help at all...I think fitness and flexiblity is the real problem with distance today.
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 03:49:12 PM »
Jon:

I can tell you with 100% certainty that I play this game for fun.

I can also tell you with 100% certainty that it's more fun to win that it is to lose.

And I say that as one who plays lots of rounds just for the hell of it - that is, I am pretty anti-competitive much of the time.  But still competition does exist - testing one's self in this way is a very great part of the game also.  And if you are going into battle, you don't use a pea-shooter against the opponent's AK-47.  That's neither fun nor traditionalist nor purist - it's silly masochism.

TH
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Brent Hutto

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2007, 03:52:15 PM »
John,

My congrats on not needing chemo.

My condolences on no longer being skinny.

And my complete agreement on the effect of fitness and training on distance. The change from mushy Balta to firmer balls added a certain amount of distance. The change from 43" steel shafts to 45" graphite ones added a small additional increment. Maybe the change from persimmon to titanium added a tiny bit on top of that.

But the elephant in the room is the fact that so many golfers are now flexible and strong and using efficient swings to a degree that would have been unimaginable for middle-aged weekend hackers a couple decades ago. In my opinion that's at least as big a factor as everything else except the abandonment of the squishy, lumpy golf ball.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2007, 03:55:21 PM »
Quote from: Brent Hutto on September 27, 2007, 03:52:15 PM
John,

My congrats on not needing chemo.

My condolences on no longer being skinny.

And my complete agreement on the effect of fitness and training on distance. The change from mushy Balta to firmer balls added a certain amount of distance. The change from 43" steel shafts to 45" graphite ones added a small additional increment. Maybe the change from persimmon to titanium added a tiny bit on top of that.

But the elephant in the room is the fact that so many golfers are now flexible and strong and using efficient swings to a degree that would have been unimaginable for middle-aged weekend hackers a couple decades ago. In my opinion that's at least as big a factor as everything else except the abandonment of the squishy, lumpy golf ball.

Nobody steps in the bucket anymore.  A huge problem is that most courses are now being maintained wider than ever before to keep the cry babies coming back.  Wider courses equals freer swings equals more distance.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 03:55:35 PM by John Kavanaugh »
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2007, 03:58:17 PM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on September 27, 2007, 03:34:47 PM
Tom,

I agree with your point of view but the question that still nags me is 'why do we play the game? for fun or for the competition?' if it is for fun......

John,

I play less than 20 years ago, I hit the ball worse than 20 years ago, I am swinging the club worse but I am 30 yards longer with the modern club. Up until now it ain't solving itself :-\. I have to add I think the solution is probably not to go back to percies but rather knock 20 % off the ball.

Jon<

30 yds further...what are you 28?  I would like some sort of verification because I am starting to believe that you have been brainwashed.  Do you play the same course as 20 years ago?
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Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2007, 03:59:43 PM »
Quote from: Brent Hutto on September 27, 2007, 03:52:15 PM

But the elephant in the room is the fact that so many golfers are now flexible and strong and using efficient swings to a degree that would have been unimaginable for middle-aged weekend hackers a couple decades ago. In my opinion that's at least as big a factor as everything else except the abandonment of the squishy, lumpy golf ball.

Brent,

Do you really run into many middle-aged hackers who are fit enough so that it makes a difference in their golf game?  I probably fall into that category myself but I don't know many other guys who are fit enough to make a difference.
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Ken Moum

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Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2007, 04:00:01 PM »
I not only have multiple sets of 1950s and 60s woods and irons, but I use them in competition.

In the past 2 seasons I also have competed while using stainless steel drivers and fairway woods from more than 20 years ago, and the lob wedge in my bag for every competitve round is about 18 years old.

The irons I will use in a tournament next week are old 304 stainless blades, with the only concession to age (60) being their very flexible graphite shafts.

In fact the only high-tech clubs I'm carrying are a Futura putter and a Cleveland Hibore driver, And the driver isn't any longer than the 170cc steel one I was using a year ago.

It is, however, somewhat straighter.

I know most will scoff, but I shoot virtually the same scores with the old stuff as I do with the new stuff.

Except for the ball......

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2007, 04:06:27 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on September 27, 2007, 03:55:21 PM
A huge problem is that most courses are now being maintained wider than ever before to keep the cry babies coming back.  Wider courses equals freer swings equals more distance.

Every course I have played repeatedly over the last 30 years is now significantly narrower than it was when I first played.

Most due to tree encroachment, but also because of mowing patterns and longer, thicker rough.

I wish they were wider.....

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2007, 04:07:19 PM »
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 27, 2007, 03:49:12 PM
Jon:

I can tell you with 100% certainty that I play this game for fun.

I can also tell you with 100% certainty that it's more fun to win that it is to lose.


Tom,

that depends on how you win.

John K,

I find only playing holes that are down hill and down wind helps my stats. ;D
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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2007, 04:10:15 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on September 27, 2007, 03:58:17 PM
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on September 27, 2007, 03:34:47 PM
Tom,

I agree with your point of view but the question that still nags me is 'why do we play the game? for fun or for the competition?' if it is for fun......

John,

I play less than 20 years ago, I hit the ball worse than 20 years ago, I am swinging the club worse but I am 30 yards longer with the modern club. Up until now it ain't solving itself :-\. I have to add I think the solution is probably not to go back to percies but rather knock 20 % off the ball.

Jon<

30 yds further...what are you 28?  I would like some sort of verification because I am starting to believe that you have been brainwashed.  Do you play the same course as 20 years ago?

Add 10 years John. Yes, I still play alot of the courses I played 20 years ago and no I am not brainwashed. Maybe gravity is less these days.
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Brent Hutto

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2007, 04:10:49 PM »
Quote from: Phil Benedict on September 27, 2007, 03:59:43 PM
Quote from: Brent Hutto on September 27, 2007, 03:52:15 PM

But the elephant in the room is the fact that so many golfers are now flexible and strong and using efficient swings to a degree that would have been unimaginable for middle-aged weekend hackers a couple decades ago. In my opinion that's at least as big a factor as everything else except the abandonment of the squishy, lumpy golf ball.

Brent,

Do you really run into many middle-aged hackers who are fit enough so that it makes a difference in their golf game?  I probably fall into that category myself but I don't know many other guys who are fit enough to make a difference.

I don't know about "many" but yes, there are a handful of guys at my club who are a few years older than me and things like Yoga classes or working with a personal trainer twice a week and stretching daily will get them making a full shoulder turn and maintaining their posture on the back nine with the result of hitting the ball 10-15 yards longer with the driver and hitting it consistently straighter and higher than they did just a couple years earlier. One guy is nearing 60 and has two artificial hips. He has to use a golf cart but religious stretching means he can really wind up and belt the ball a lot further than I can at a decade younger age.

I wasn't playing golf 20 years ago but I bet Yoga classes and daily stretching regimens would have been laughed out of town by your typical Country Club small-businessman eight handicapper back then. Now a fair number of them take that sort of thing seriously, not to mention the occasional lesson or daily workout of their golf swing with a weighted club.
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2007, 04:11:04 PM »
If everyone on this site switched to persimmon, blades and balotta it wouldn't slow technology one bit.  So if we are part of the problem it's a really small part.  

I played a round of golf this spring with hickories. First time ever.  It was interesting and different but I wouldn't say it made the game more or less fun.  Made the game pretty hard, that's for sure.  Bob Jones must have been really good!
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2007, 04:13:03 PM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on September 27, 2007, 04:07:19 PM
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 27, 2007, 03:49:12 PM
Jon:

I can tell you with 100% certainty that I play this game for fun.

I can also tell you with 100% certainty that it's more fun to win that it is to lose.


Tom,

that depends on how you win.


Of course.  But giving away huge equipment advantages just to prove some sort of point truly does meet the definition of biting off one's nose to spite his face.

Please understand though that we're closer on this than it seems.  I do get what you're asking.

I just find ceding competitive advantage to be a very difficult thing to do.  And yes, competing is part of this game, at least part of the time, for me.

TH
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Rick Shefchik

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Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2007, 04:17:29 PM »
Quote from: Sean Arble on September 27, 2007, 04:03:12 PM
Jon

Nobody likes to admit it, but nearly every person on this board who complains about technology is part of the problem and a hypocrite to boot.  I have said all along that its a very simple choice to make and nobody needs the USGA to roll back tech to make the decision.  Either you believe tech is bad for the game and you make personal choices to do something about it OR you are fueling the problem - in which case I don't want to hear the whinging because at best its  insincere.  

Sean,

I profoundly disagree. Huckaby has hit it on the nose -- when we compete with other golfers, we must either decide to be "pure" for purity's sake and nothing more, or play the same game our opponents play.

I can hold two seemingly contradictory opinions -- that modern equipment has not been good for the game (and particularly for the golf courses), and that I can and will use equipment that gives me a chance to be competitive with other players -- with no guilt or confliction whatsoever.
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are we part of the problem?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2007, 04:20:37 PM »
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on September 27, 2007, 04:13:03 PM

Of course.  But giving away huge equipment advantages just to prove some sort of point truly does meet the definition of biting off one's nose to spite his face.

Quote

Tom,

seems to me biting your own nose off is harder to do than winning the club championship with hickories. Try it, I bet you can't even scrape your nose with your teeth (unless there false ;D)

But seriously, I know what your getting at and I am not saying use old clubs for tournaments just playing some of the classic courses with them really would seem to me to enhance the experience.
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