[Jay Flemma]

These two are deeply disconcerting:

    "When golf was brought here by the Scots, mostly and some of the Irish and the UK countries, the UK Kingdoms of where golf kind of started the idea was a golf professional or someone who knew golf came over with the idea of building a golf hole in the early days of my career I used to hear the word Rodin greens, and Cardinal bunker, and all those old famous things that you can find in the British Isle golf courses. And people would come here to bring those ideas and incorporate them.

 

    Well, we've had enough of those and plenty of those built. And now over the last, say, 50 to 75 years, five or six decades, we have so many golf courses we're always trying to create different styles."

Then this one:

    Q. Some people talk about the short par 4, the short risk-reward par 4 as being the most exciting hole in golf. Best tournament hole. Did you consider that when you built Atunyote?

    TOM FAZIO: Yes, not individually. And I agree with that. I've been building short par 4 golf holes before that became famous. That became the in thing, because lots of people have.

Shackelford has the whole thing:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/ive-been-building-short-par-4-golf-holes-before-that-became-.html#comments

[Tim Pitner]

Who's writing Fazio's stuff . . . George Bush?  The tortured syntax is eerily similar.  

[Jay Flemma]

I really take umbrage at him telling us we've had enough redans.

[Mike_Cirba]

Who's writing Fazio's stuff . . . George Bush?  The tortured syntax is eerily similar.  

I can't wait for the US Open at the "Atunyote" course at Turning Stone.  

They could possibly use the Rick Smith "Shenendoah" course for parking...except half the gallery would get lost trying to follow the routing.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Since he created "The Augusta of the North" I understand ANGC will start a "Fall Masters" there to replace the Tour Championship.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, really...the augusta of the north...and the funny thing is, The Oneidas bought it!  They actually think...and this is what the old marketing director said to me..."we're every bit as good as Augusta, Whistling Straits and Kiawah Island...

[Mike_Cirba]

Jay,

The Atunyote course is maybe the perfect modern course.

The conditioning is beyond incredible, thus the ANGC comparison.

It is also perhaps the most fair golf course I've ever played and one can not only see exactly what is required for success on every shot, the conditioning virtually assures that the outcome is in symmetry with the degree of accuracy and length of the shot.  

There are no surprises.

It is also lovely...far beyond what might seem possible in the wooded fields east of Syracuse.   It is spacious....clearly designed with spectators in mind.  

The Golf Channel folks, with their new putt meter, seemed perplexed the other day to find that a 60+ foot putt on the 16th green measured PERFECTLY STRAIGHT.   Perhaps they shouldn't have been, as it's simply more proof that the Fazio group isn't leaning on the glories of past courses, but blazing new trails of their own with imaginative designs.

It is also a course that I imagine the Tour loves with all of its collective heart.   I can't imagine anyone could possibly complain about a single unfair shot, or poor condition, or confusing set of circumstances.

It is also as vapid as Paris Hilton.

[Jay Flemma]

Vapid and vacuous are indeed, two perfect adjectives.  A straight 60 footer, but that's what the pros want...they want to have everything spoon-fed to them and not have breaking putts so that all they have to do is stop thinking...Turning Stone?  More like Blarney Stone.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have read Tom Doak here, saying some of the same things - he is hesitant to build too many Redans or for that matter, anything that has been done before. I seriously doubt GS would sluff off his remarks the way he huffed about TF's.

For that matter, he didn't say he invented the short par 4 and I clearly understood him to mean that other modern designers have included it in their formula almost religiously. Hey wait, I think I remember Tom Doak saying something like that not long ago and he didn't get crucified for it!

There is nothing conceptually wrong with trying new designs, rather than templates, or copies.  In fact, most would find it rather refreshing, don't you think?

I grant that his word for word quotes sound a little like he was surprised by the questions.  And, I haven't seen the course, so I can't comment on his comments.  As usual, in certain circles (like here and on GS.com) I think TF is doomed to a bashing any time he opens his mouth......whether he may deserve it or not.

[Bill_McBride]

I really take umbrage at him telling us we've had enough redans.

I thought he said "Rodins."  I agree we've had enough of those.

As for Redans, every course should have one - if the landform is right!

[Jeff_Brauer]

As Brad and Dan will testify, I took the 17th at the Quarry and turned it into a Rhodan hole, short for "Rhodent Down".

[Jeff Loh]

i wonder if the "rodins" are "sculpted"?
couldn't resist

[Jeff_Brauer]

To be fair to Fazio, the Fast Scripts translation also mentions Pinehers No. 2, Marian and a few other ridiculous speellings.  I belive the Rhodin hole remark is a case of the translator not knowing, not Fazio.

He does seem to ramble a bit, but I recall my first national interview with the printed press.  They quoted every um, ah and use of the word "stuff." (I think I said stuff, but maybe they at least cleaned that up!)  I recall being aghast at how my spoken words looked in print.  I was dismayed, esp. after seeing pro athletes stumble through quotes on the 10 PM news, and then sounding like Harvard graduates the next day when cleaned up from the paper.

So, toy with Faz if you want, but I understand how some of that confused talk creeps in.  

[Mike_Young]

Was there something wrong with what he said?

[Jim Nugent]

I have read Tom Doak here, saying some of the same things - he is hesitant to build too many Redans or for that matter, anything that has been done before. I seriously doubt GS would sluff off his remarks the way he huffed about TF's.

For that matter, he didn't say he invented the short par 4 and I clearly understood him to mean that other modern designers have included it in their formula almost religiously. Hey wait, I think I remember Tom Doak saying something like that not long ago and he didn't get crucified for it!

Yet Doak is designing an entire course built around holes like these.  I read Fazio as saying he religiously avoids designing those types of holes.  He puts them down somewhat as old-fashioned and amateurish.  

Short par 4's: there are plenty of famous, great drivable par 4's in the classic courses.  10th Riviera and several at TOC, to name a few.  They obviously pre-date Fazio, some by centuries.  Maybe he is talking about post RTJ courses.  Though even there       is he the innovator he makes himself out to be?  

His statements come across as self-aggrandizing to me.  

Curious to see Fazio's own top 100 list of world's or U.S. greatest golf courses.  Where does he rank NGLA, e.g.?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have read Tom Doak here, saying some of the same things - he is hesitant to build too many Redans or for that matter, anything that has been done before. I seriously doubt GS would sluff off his remarks the way he huffed about TF's.

For that matter, he didn't say he invented the short par 4 and I clearly understood him to mean that other modern designers have included it in their formula almost religiously. Hey wait, I think I remember Tom Doak saying something like that not long ago and he didn't get crucified for it!

There is nothing conceptually wrong with trying new designs, rather than templates, or copies.  In fact, most would find it rather refreshing, don't you think?

I grant that his word for word quotes sound a little like he was surprised by the questions.  And, I haven't seen the course, so I can't comment on his comments.  As usual, in certain circles (like here and on GS.com) I think TF is doomed to a bashing any time he opens his mouth......whether he may deserve it or not.

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[Tommy_Naccarato]

To be fair to Fazio, the Fast Scripts translation also mentions Pinehers No. 2, Marian and a few other ridiculous speellings.  I belive the Rhodin hole remark is a case of the translator not knowing, not Fazio.

He does seem to ramble a bit, but I recall my first national interview with the printed press.  They quoted every um, ah and use of the word "stuff." (I think I said stuff, but maybe they at least cleaned that up!)  I recall being aghast at how my spoken words looked in print.  I was dismayed, esp. after seeing pro athletes stumble through quotes on the 10 PM news, and then sounding like Harvard graduates the next day when cleaned up from the paper.

So, toy with Faz if you want, but I understand how some of that confused talk creeps in.  

Breff Jauer,
Did you get to talk about yourself in the third person at all during the interview? You know like Bo Jackson, Ricky Henderson and Mike Tyson used to do?

[Michael Whitaker]

RODAN



REDAN

[Dan Kelly]

RODIN



So: Tom Fazio doesn't plan to design any Redans. So?

[Tom Yost]

RHODEN

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael Whitaker,

That first picture looks to be an extremely challenging hole.  Now I see what Fazio is talking about when he talks about creating new, imaginative hole designs.

[Tim Pitner]

I really take umbrage at him telling us we've had enough redans.

I don't know, the Redan concept has stood the test of time, but I can understand why a designer (of anything) wouldn't want to accept the notion that he should simply re-create or modify models built 100 years ago.  BTW, I'm not defending Fazio's body of work (I've only played one of his courses--Kiawah Osprey--which appeared to be mailed in), but the statements in and of themselves don't bother me (apart from being incoherent).  I've read elsewhere that Fazio doesn't think classic architecture has much to teach him generally, which I certainly would object to.    

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