[John Kavanaugh]

Is there anything that can be done to provide 12-14yr old golfers a fair tournament free of controversy.  The rules of golf seem far too complicated for their young status as golfers and ignorant parents.  Can a simple set of junior rules be created to give the game back to the kids?

I thought I could leave my 12 year old son out on the course alone to fend for himself, as each golfer should, and was proven wrong this weekend.  It makes me sick thinking that I may have to follow him not as a spectator but as a referee/protector.  Junior golf can not become a sport where it is like giving every parent at at basketball game a whistle.  I don't see a solution beyond banning all parents from the course and giving kids a rule book with no more than five specific easy to understand guidelines.

Possible rules:

1. A maximum of eight on each hole.
2. If you lose your ball you take an eight.
3. Play the ball as it lies.
4. Verify your score after each hole with each player in the group.
5. You may move your ball one club length for a penalty of one stroke.

Is there a need for any other rules and/or what has your section done to make junior golf palatable.  Do you do anything special to set up a course for children of this age or skill level?

[Rich Goodale]

John

Assuming you are playing stroke play, send out a "marker" with each group.  This person should be an accomplished golfer who knows both the rules, the etiquette and the history of the game.  He or she keeps score and resolves any disputes.  No other adults allowed on the course.

One of my clubs does this, and it is the best junior program I have ever seen or even heard of.

Rich

PS--the 8-10 stroke max limit is a good one, too, at least for beginners.

R

[Dan Kelly]

No other adults allowed on the course.

There's absolutely no reason to ban other adults from the course.

All you need is for the parents to behave themselves as well as the kids generally do. I've watched quite a bit of junior golf lately, and have seen little or no misbehavior from parents and other adults.

If you have a marker with each group, as Rich recommends (good idea), that marker would be empowered to demand proper behavior from the spectating adults.

[Mark Pearce]

John

Assuming you are playing stroke play, send out a "marker" with each group.  This person should be an accomplished golfer who knows both the rules, the etiquette and the history of the game.  He or she keeps score and resolves any disputes.  No other adults allowed on the course.

One of my clubs does this, and it is the best junior program I have ever seen or even heard of.

Rich

PS--the 8-10 stroke max limit is a good one, too, at least for beginners.

R

The oldest Junior event in the world is allegedto be the Ockleford Cup, played over the Elie Links every August.  They do exectly as Rich suggests, with parents (all of whom are golfers) refereeing groups in which their own children do not play.  Parents are actively discouraged from following their offspring.

It's a great event and sees all standards (this year a 13 year old who had shot 71 the day before and several who would shoot 71 for 4 holes).

Seriously,  I think at 12 or 13 kids should be beginning to play to the rules of the game.  At that age some can already be very fine golfers.  We have friends with a son who is 13 and spent most of the summer reducing his handicap from 18 to 6 by shooting par or just over on a regular basis.  There's no reason why kidscan't have as good a grasp of the basic rules as an adult.  The problem isn't the rules, it's getting them playing.  Having an adult willing to referee groups will really work and is what my club does.  

[Dan_Callahan]

Let's please not dumb down the game of golf just because we underestimate the learning capacity of a 14-year-old kid. That's an excuse for the underlying problem . . . we as adults simply don't take the time to teach kids the rules.

[Jordan Wall]

Juniors should most definitely have an understanding of the rules before they enter a golf tournament.  
I think that is essential.

Tom many times, high school tournaments, I see kids cutting their scores, moving their ball, and cheating.  It doesn't make sense to me.  If kids understood the rules, they could realize they actually can help score better.  Simply put, I dont think there should be seperate rules for juniors in tournaments.  Its a horrible way to learn the game.

[JohnV]

Stableford.

[Mike Sweeney]

Stableford.

Great idea. US Kids has a 10 shot rule, but Stableford would be better.

http://www.uskidsgolf.com/redirect.cfm?locationID=11301

For 13 and under, I would vote for the above, when they hit High School, they can move to regular rules.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am talking about junior high school matches where it is not feasible to find a marker for each group that understands the rules.  If you have one parent that is a referee then you need a parent for each player to provide balance.

[John Kavanaugh]

No other adults allowed on the course.

There's absolutely no reason to ban other adults from the course.

All you need is for the parents to behave themselves as well as the kids generally do. I've watched quite a bit of junior golf lately, and have seen little or no misbehavior from parents and other adults.

If you have a marker with each group, as Rich recommends (good idea), that marker would be empowered to demand proper behavior from the spectating adults.

Dan,

I think it is great that you enjoy watching your daughter play golf.  Do you keep track or the other girls scores in writing or in your head.  I could see banning pencils and scorecards from parents.

[Tom Roewer]

If the school matches are to create a productive educational experience, then The Rules of Golf should be applied.  If this is not feasible, then don't have a competition.,

[Mark Pearce]

I am talking about junior high school matches where it is not feasible to find a marker for each group that understands the rules.  If you have one parent that is a referee then you need a parent for each player to provide balance.

It is just begging for trouble to have a parent of one of the competitors referee a match.  Golfing parents should be asked to referee matches in which their progeny are not playing.

You suggest that having one parent on each side provides balance.  It certainly provides the potential for argument and an increased likelihood of patisanship.  Is that any way to introduce children to golf?  Down that road golf turns into any other sport with cheating and dissent towards officials.  If you think that works then you don't understand golf.

[Mark Pearce]

No other adults allowed on the course.

There's absolutely no reason to ban other adults from the course.

All you need is for the parents to behave themselves as well as the kids generally do. I've watched quite a bit of junior golf lately, and have seen little or no misbehavior from parents and other adults.

If you have a marker with each group, as Rich recommends (good idea), that marker would be empowered to demand proper behavior from the spectating adults.

I'm with Rich on this.  Why should other adults be on the course?  I've seen enough junior sport to know that the kids will, on the whole, play better and (most importantly) enjoy themselves more if their parents are not following them around.

All three of my kids play in the Ockleford each year.  Some parents may follow at a great distance (2/300 yards), others don't follow at all.  A few try (but are discouraged) from following closely.  Those are, without fail, the pushy ones that the kids could do without.

[John Kavanaugh]

This weekend I had three parents corner my sixth grade son and call him a cheater because he refused to accept a penalty for his ball hitting a tree in a hazard and bouncing back out into the fairway.  I thought I could let him play alone and learn valuable lessons in defending himself but these goons overpowered him and he gave in and took a seven where he had made a five.  He did learn a valuable lesson in all of this but at the price of losing some of the joy he had for the game.  I can not express how dissappointed I am that I will have to protect him from these people...He just isn't strong enough to do it on his own.

We didn't really have these problems in tennis as there are so many fewer rules to concern yourself with.  My daughter was pretty well known for stopping matches and telling opposing parents to shut up and get a life when they crossed the line.  That is not so easy in golf when in most every case even the local pro does not understand the most obscure rulings.

[Mark Pearce]

This weekend I had three parents corner my sixth grade son and call him a cheater because he refused to accept a penalty for his ball hitting a tree in a hazard and bouncing back out into the fairway.  I thought I could let him play alone and learn valuable lessons in defending himself but these goons overpowered him and he gave in and took a seven where he had made a five.  He did learn a valuable lesson in all of this but at the price of losing some of the joy he had for the game.  I can not express how dissappointed I am that I will have to protect him from these people...He just isn't strong enough to do it on his own.

We didn't really have these problems in tennis as there are so many fewer rules to concern yourself with.  My daughter was pretty well known for stopping matches and telling opposing parents to shut up and get a life when they crossed the line.  That is not so easy in golf when in most every case even the local pro does not understand the most obscure rulings.

It seems to me that you are missing the point.  The problem here is not and was not the complexity of the rules or your son's difficulty in understanding them.  The problems were, as follows:  the ignorance of the rules of the other parents; the absence of a single, non-partisan referee for the match; and the failure of these other parents to agree to resolve the issue with the organiser of the tournament later.  Seems to sme your anecdote is a perfect illustration of why Rich was right.  No other adults on the course.

[Dan Kelly]

No other adults allowed on the course.

There's absolutely no reason to ban other adults from the course.

All you need is for the parents to behave themselves as well as the kids generally do. I've watched quite a bit of junior golf lately, and have seen little or no misbehavior from parents and other adults.

If you have a marker with each group, as Rich recommends (good idea), that marker would be empowered to demand proper behavior from the spectating adults.

Dan,

I think it is great that you enjoy watching your daughter play golf.  Do you keep track or the other girls scores in writing or in your head.  I could see banning pencils and scorecards from parents.

I don't keep track of anyone's score, including my daughter's.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

I think you misunderstood my stance.  I do not follow my son because it would be hypocritical of me since back when I coached the team I did not allow parents on the course.  I also did not allow push carts, cell phones or ball finders.  Those types of rules are not possible now only ten years later.

Our tournament this weekend had 16 foresomes...There are not 16 qualified rules officials in all of Southern Indiana.

[Mike Sweeney]

My daughter was pretty well known for stopping matches and telling opposing parents to shut up and get a life when they crossed the line.  

Did she get this from her mother or her father?  

[John Kavanaugh]

No other adults allowed on the course.

There's absolutely no reason to ban other adults from the course.

All you need is for the parents to behave themselves as well as the kids generally do. I've watched quite a bit of junior golf lately, and have seen little or no misbehavior from parents and other adults.

If you have a marker with each group, as Rich recommends (good idea), that marker would be empowered to demand proper behavior from the spectating adults.

Dan,

I think it is great that you enjoy watching your daughter play golf.  Do you keep track or the other girls scores in writing or in your head.  I could see banning pencils and scorecards from parents.

I don't keep track of anyone's score, including my daughter's.

That is just one reason I have always liked you...not to mention your attractive wife.  I can not stand watching parents with a scorecard in hand writing down the scores of every competitor.

[John Kavanaugh]

My daughter was pretty well known for stopping matches and telling opposing parents to shut up and get a life when they crossed the line.  

Did she get this from her mother or her father?  

The Devil took every dangerous feature of me and my wife, mixed it all together and named her Katie Pearl.

[Dan Kelly]

Mark,

I think you misunderstood my stance.  I do not follow my son because it would be hypocritical of me since back when I coached the team I did not allow parents on the course.  I also did not allow push carts, cell phones or ball finders.  Those types of rules are not possible now only ten years later.

Our tournament this weekend had 16 foresomes...There are not 16 qualified rules officials in all of Southern Indiana.

I know how this will be received (I think), but I'll say it anyway:

All you need is one qualified rules official -- and 16 observers with cell phones, who can call the qualified rules official if the observer needs help with a ruling.

[John Kavanaugh]

Now that my son is one step closer to being the cynical unhappy bastard that he calls Dad, we have arrived at a solution.  He simply stands up for what he believes his score is and refers it to the committee.  If any other questions persist in the middle of play he will play two balls and take it to the committee.  Any parent will be told to stop talking to him and go find me somewhere near the bar.

[Gene Greco]

I can not express how dissappointed I am that I will have to protect him from these people.

John:

    When my son was younger he would complain about other competitors in his group overtly cheating in any manner they could, mostly giving the wrong score, even with parent markers present.

As these kids aged and were left on their own without markers most didn't change their ways and some became even more blatant. A few had parents who seem to be of the ilk you describe above.

Well, one opponent my son had been paired with in previous years (a chronic liar, cheater) kicked his ball out of the rough on 18 and my son after years of holding his tongue called him on it. The kid simply denied it.

When my son told the tournament officials what had happened their response was no one else saw it so it was my son's word against his competitor's. No penalty. His opponents Dad went ballistic and caused quite a scene which is when I came to pull my son away from this mayhem.

Anyway, another competitor's granddad had sat for most of the afternoon under a tree near the 18th green with BINOCULARS and witnessed  the footwedge and took the initiative to join the fray telling officials he also saw what my son had.

The tournament committee made the kid walk back up the hill in front of all who had gathered to replay the second half of the hole from the point he had kicked the ball adding a two stroke penalty.

Not sure if this deterred the little thief and his rude father but I'm sure it made more of an impression than if he were simply disqualified.

         Gene      

[John Kavanaugh]

When I was a freshman in high school I saw a big kid use a foot wedge and didn't call the penalty.  I still seem to let guys get away with murder on red stake drops.  I hate these complicated rules.

[Tom Roewer]

Mark,

I think you misunderstood my stance.  I do not follow my son because it would be hypocritical of me since back when I coached the team I did not allow parents on the course.  I also did not allow push carts, cell phones or ball finders.  Those types of rules are not possible now only ten years later.

Our tournament this weekend had 16 foresomes...There are not 16 qualified rules officials in all of Southern Indiana.

I know how this will be received (I think), but I'll say it anyway:

All you need is one qualified rules official -- and 16 observers with cell phones, who can call the qualified rules official if the observer needs help with a ruling.

Dan Kelly is spot on here.  If the tournament committee or planner or whoever puts on the competition can not afford this then they should not go ahead with the event!  Golf as competition just is not golf when there is no rules comprehension.  

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