[Jim Johnson]

In watching the tour pros extricate themselves from greenside bunkers with amazing accuracy and consistency, I wonder what it would be like if the bunkers were not raked, and were left in their natural state, so as to provide that much more of a "hazard".

In particular, in a local project that is in the works, I would seriously consider voicing my vote that no rakes are left on the golf course, and that perhaps once a week (or every second week) a sand-pro is sent out onto the course to "alleviate the problem a bit" for the golfers. This at a public access golf course.

Have any of you golfed at, worked at, or designed/constructed a course which has no rakes? Which course was it? What did you think of the policy? Did it seem to hinder your shot-making?

JJ

[Tom Huckaby]

JJ:

That's been discussed often in here, and some are for it, wanting to make bunkers into real hazards.

Personally I think I little of that would go a very long way.  That is, it's one thing to make them a little more difficult, but quite another when footprints would mean darn near any shot from them would be tantamount to unplayable.  I really think it would be too much.  On top of that, just because pros can easily get out of well-groomed bunkers does NOT mean us amateurs can.  I'd venture to say darn near all with handicaps over 3 find bunkers to be plenty of challenge even when they are perfectly groomed.

So I vote NO for this.  Maybe do it for the pros, perhaps.  But no way do we do this for us rank and file.

TH

[John_Cullum]

I take it you extricate yourself from greenside bunkers with the efficiency of a touring pro

[Tom Huckaby]

I take it you extricate yourself from greenside bunkers with the efficiency of a touring pro

JC, you ask in so few words what takes me so many... well done, my friend.

That is the gist of it.  Tour pros are one thing and we ain't they!

 

[Jim Johnson]

I take it you extricate yourself from greenside bunkers with the efficiency of a touring pro

I wish, John, I wish. lol
No, not this 14-handicapper.

I think I mention it from a maintenance issue more than anything. When I play a course where I find rakes IN the bunkers, I look at it as though it is somewhat bizarre to see something like that inside a hazard.
When playing a course where the rakes are left on grass, I wonder if this isn't a bit of a maintenance nightmare for the crew.

JJ

[John_Cullum]

That is always the trade off. But I think it would be a disiaster to stop raking bunkers.

funny thing is about 80 % of the people lamenting on the making courses tougher thread will say that bunkers should not be raked.

Curious man, curious.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

i grew up playing on a few courses without rakes--

Douglaston Golf Club
Eisenhower Park Blue and White

[Pat Brockwell]

Rakes aren't the nightmare, from a maintenance POV, bunkers are!  I can mow Black Mesa with 4 men/4hours daily.  I need 6 guys/4-5 hours daily to maintain the bunkers (unless we get a good rain, then it takes alot longer). Do the math.  If we don't rake bunkers we get complaints and lose play and ranking status.  BTW we keep rakes outside the bunker, better visually and easier rulings when a ball comes to rest on one.  They are beautiful though.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jim,

You've described the intent at Sagebrush. Richard Zokol - founder, course co-designer and chairman of the club - is adamant about NO RAKES at Sagebrush.

The bunkers are being filled with an unusual type of sand, taken from a mine not far from the course. This sand really packs tight, so the bunkers will be very firm.

Much like at Pine Valley, I presume Sagebrush golfers will be expected to courteously smooth divots and footprints upon exiting the bunkers. As they say, the condition of bunker sand is entirely dependent on the last golfer who raked it!  

[Bob_Huntley]

You tee off in a tournament at noon. The first foursome went out at 8.00am. Do you think that it is equitable for you to play out of six inch footprints than did the dewsweepers?


At MPCC we have a sand dune protecting the green from an ill advised attempt at reaching the green in two shots. It is not raked and I must say that late in the day it is a complete ball buster when attempting a recovery shot.

Bob

[James Bennett]

I think the no-rakes approach would appeal to a small percentage of golfers.  The membership would really have to get it, and not be concerned about equity in golf or having a bad bunker shot recovery which cost their score an extra shot.  Keep wishing guys.

Bob H

Is that par 5 hole with the protecting dune MPCC Dunes #9 by chance?

IIRC, MPCC Shore also has those sandy waste areas which include the golf traffic access from tee to fairway.  The sand used there is not 'dunes' sand, rather something which packs fairly tightly and takes traffic without becoming a pre-season training exercise to get through.

By contrast, Pine Valley's waste areas don't pack as tightly though.  You can get some lovely lies in there.  Definitely a fairway recovery  if you are lucky.  However, finding the ball is not that difficult, and recovery is probably easier than from heather.  And much easier than water!

James B

[Jason Topp]

Rather than no rakes, I like the approach on the sandbelt courses where bunkers really vary in the amount of sand.

[MHiserman]

I say, PGA Tour first.  

[Bryan Izatt]

The Hoot Course at Osprey Valley has essentially no rakes and plenty of hard packed waste bunkers.  Carts are driven through many of them.  Lots of footprints.  Lies are luck of the draw.  Extrication an adventure.  In practice, for  me, it might make a difference of a stroke or two a round.  Very frustrating when you draw a bad lie.  But maintaing them would be a nightmare I would imagine.

Some other posters (Ian) on here might be able to clarify if this was the architect's design concept, or whether it's what the owner wanted.

[Jon Wiggett]

I think there is a valid argument for having the Tour playing from unraked bunkers as it will make them into a hazard again.

I also believe in the right setting it would be acceptable to do this for amateur golfers as although they are not as good out of bunkers than the pros they have a handicap to compensate this deficit. I think the sand would be better if it were quite firm though.

[John Mayhugh]

I'm not sure how not raking bunkers would work.  Does this mean that players would be penalized for smoothing out footprints with their feet or a club?  Seems that without a penalty, decent etiquette would keep PGA Tour bunkers in pretty good shape with or w/o rakes.

[Jon Wiggett]

John,

raking the bunker is etiquette and not a rule of golf so there is no penalty for not raking the bunker. In this way I don't think it would be necessary to make not raking the bunker a rule. You would be amazed how few people would bother to smooth out bunkers if they didn't feel they were obliged to, it always amazes me how many people don't even though they should.

[John Mayhugh]

John,

raking the bunker is etiquette and not a rule of golf so there is no penalty for not raking the bunker. In this way I don't think it would be necessary to make not raking the bunker a rule. You would be amazed how few people would bother to smooth out bunkers if they didn't feel they were obliged to, it always amazes me how many people don't even though they should.

I realize the current rules regarding raking.  The point I intended to make was that unless you specifically prohibit smoothing out the bunker, eliminating rakes wouldn't have a big effect on the PGA Tour.  I'm pretty sure the caddies would take care of the following players.   It would just be more work for them.

Given how many people fail to use the rakes that are currently provided, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see some pretty rough bunker conditions for normal play.  I think eliminating rakes wouldn't hurt the tour players much at all, but would have a big impact on the rest of us.

[Jon Wiggett]

John,

I think you may be giving the pros too much credit in the gentlemanly conduct area. I am sure that no caddy would smooth out bunkers. I also think that it needs looking at more closely. From a greenside bunker the tour pro gets up and down more often than not but if the bunker were not raked then I believe this would not be the case. The average 18 handicapper doesn't get up and down that often requiring two putts. Finding the bunkers harder to control the ball out of is not going to effect the 18 handicapper as much as the pro as long as the 18 man can still escape from the bunker.

Charlie,

if not raking the bunkers makes it harder for the amateur than the pro then why doesn't the a ridge and furrow rake?

The raking of bunkers and the replacing of divots and repairing of pitchmarks are two completely different things. It is interesting that if you go back to the early 1900s and before they never raked the bunkers and didn't have a sand wedge to make the shot easier but you do not read any articles about the poor condition of bunkers. Is the case of raking bunkers or not just a case of the modern, pampered golfer throwing a strop

[John Mayhugh]

John,

raking the bunker is etiquette and not a rule of golf so there is no penalty for not raking the bunker. In this way I don't think it would be necessary to make not raking the bunker a rule. You would be amazed how few people would bother to smooth out bunkers if they didn't feel they were obliged to, it always amazes me how many people don't even though they should.

Who here besides me will admit that when they know they're the last guy on the course, they don't bother to rake?

I mostly enjoy raking bunkers.  Feels great after a good shot and after a bad one can be a way to burn up a little frustration rather than rush over and hit another poor shot.  I usually volunteer to rake for someone I'm playing with if they hit a poor sand shot so they don't feel rushed to go play their next one.  But maybe it's just me.  

[John Kavanaugh]

The Hoot Course at Osprey Valley has essentially no rakes and plenty of hard packed waste bunkers.  Carts are driven through many of them.  Lots of footprints.  Lies are luck of the draw.  Extrication an adventure.  In practice, for  me, it might make a difference of a stroke or two a round.  Very frustrating when you draw a bad lie.  But maintaing them would be a nightmare I would imagine.

Some other posters (Ian) on here might be able to clarify if this was the architect's design concept, or whether it's what the owner wanted.

Tobacco Road has these unraked waste areas which are good and bad.  They are excellent maintenance wise, but because there are so many of them the golfer can be faced with the same sort of recovery shot an awful lot.  Plus, sometimes trying to dig a club into the packed sand to get a ball to rise quickly can be very, very difficult.  For instance, if you miss to the right of #9 green trying to hit up that slope can be a nightmare if one doesn't pull a decent lie.  I have seen more guys than not end up in pocket from there.  I suspect if this sort of shot is going to continue to grow in popularity then a specialized club will be designed to combat it.  

Ciao

Hypochitecture alert...

It is important to note that at the GCA outing at Tobacco Road the majority ruled that we play the waste areas as ground under repair because they were eroded.  I of course ignored this ignorant advice and played the ball out of the ruts..to inches I might add.

[Scott Coan]

For all those preaching the "no rakes" line, the folllowing picture is what you end up with.  This one even had a "rake" in it, although it was more like a plow.  I had a decent lie in the upper half of the bunker and was even able to get up-an-down for a birdie, so no complaints there.

My problem was where to start and finish my "plowing"?.  I smoothed out my dugout footprints from my bunker shot and even started in on the footprints I made upon entry/exit.  Then I tool a look around, felt a bit silly, and tossed the plow back in the bunker - wishing the next guy all the best!

The next day I was playing the same course and found myself in a different bunker which was shaped much more like a pot.  My ball was sitting in a very deep heel print, very much like the one you can see at the edge of the below bunker.  There was absolutely no way to get the ball out.  3 hacks later I had myself a quadruple bogey 8 and was not so happy about the state of the bunkers.

These bunkers were certainly hazards, but when they get to the state where they look like a herd of sheep had a rampage the penalty gets a bit too steep for me.

[Mike_Clayton]

Scott,

I assume that is the big bunker on the 4th at Barnbougle.

We didn't want rakes but assumed -  wrongly as it soon became apparent -  that people would use their feet and their clubs to fix the footprints. Done diligently that was about the level of uncertainly we wanted.
Instead having no rakes was seen as an invitation to golfers not to do anything and it wasn't too long before there were rakes.
That wooden one is too heavy and cumbersome.
I have not been down for a while but I assume they are going to get both more rakes and more conventional ones that are easier to use.

The sand - unlike the sand Jeff was talking about - is very soft and the shots are difficult enough off good lies.

[Scott Coan]

Excellent eyes Mike, you are spot on!

Even with all the footprints that bunker was not so bad as there was very little lip.  The pot about 20 meters short of 9 green was where I virtually had an unplayable lie.  Took me 2 hacks just to get it out of the hole it was in.  Then I was still left with trying to blast it over the high lip and 20 meters onto the green.  So went from there to the marram grass over the green!

If I was in a water hazard instead, I could have paid the piper, taken my drop, and been left with a relatively easy lob wedge to the green.  Even if I took an unplayable lie penalty, anywhere in that bunker would have resulted in dropping into soft sand with massive footprints.

When trampled bunkers become 2 and 3 shot penalties then it just goes over the line.  Anybody who says different just hasn't been in that situation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JJohnson,

I'm with you.

Friar's Head doesn't have rakes in the bunkers or on carts and I haven't heard any vociferous complaints from members and/or guests.

For years Pine Valley didn't have rakes in the bunkers, or on carts, and members and guests didn't seem to complain.

So, I don't see what the big deal is.

A bunker is supposed to be a HAZARD, not a prefered landing zone..

Robert Randquist wrote a great position paper on bunkers.
It should be required reading for all GCA.com'ers.

Tom Huckaby,

When I see mid-handicapers easily extracting themselves out of fairway bunkers with utility clubs and from greenside bunkers with special wedges (lob, etc.,) you can't posit that bunkers present the same level of difficulty today, as they did 20 or more years ago.  Well, maybe you can, but, that could only be attributed to your youth, faulty memory or both.

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