Why woudn't you use an architect?

« **on:** September 15, 2007, 10:38:42 PM »

As a corollary to do-it-yourself thread....
Assuming you had the capital to build a new course -- with pleanty to spare.
Why wouldn't you use an architect?

Using Pat's example of the do-it-yourselfer in New England -- I'll state quite confidently that an architect could have designed a better course and saved more than their fee from the cost to construct.

And the owner gets to "design" however much they want anyway...

« **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2007, 12:49:40 PM »

Mike,

If money were no object, I can see trying to do it myself. If it turned out that I couldn't (which is likely), there would always be another piece of land somewhere, and plenty of architects to chose from.

It's obviously not the smart way to go, but a little part of me would wonder if I could come up with something good, and take all the credit for it.

« **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:07:27 PM »

This topic is interesting. But it is not new.

One (of several) purposes of the best books written during the GA was to make the case that people ought to hire golf course architects. It was a very simple argument, as true now as it was then. A real gca can do the job better and - in the long run - less expensively.

We tend to forget that the vast majority of golf courses were home made jobs up until about 1920. The profession of gca was still trying to establish itself to the wider golfing public at that time.

Bob

« **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:13:55 PM »

Bob, I think you put your finger on why someone with unlimited wealth would be tempted to try it alone. Many of the courses we love were designed prior to 1920, and many, as you point out, were home made.

A total novice in the field now would have almost 100 more years of golf course construction and design to draw from. A guy would have to wonder if there's a little bit of, say, Henry Fownes in him.

« **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:37:04 PM »

Rick -

Guys like you and me have 100 years or so of "design" precedents to leverage.

But guys like us don't have 100 minutes of experience with drainage, zoning, irrigation, agronomics, soil composition, cart paths, access roads and related issues. You don't get that from reading books. You need to spend time in the field.

I am coming to think that cart paths are a very, very big issue. The should be. They are the single biggest feature on a golf course. Cart paths can flunk an otherwise successful design. The other stuff can too.

So I'm not terribly sanguine about my abilities to do a a good course.

Bob

« **Reply #5 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:43:49 PM »

I agree, Bob. I'm sure I'd make a mess of it.

But Mike's question was, why wouldn't you use an architect? I think the answer is, because you're trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

« **Reply #6 on:** September 16, 2007, 04:28:14 PM »

Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on September 15, 2007, 10:38:42 PM

As a corollary to do-it-yourself thread....
Assuming you had the capital to build a new course -- with pleanty to spare.
Why wouldn't you use an architect?

Using Pat's example of the do-it-yourselfer in New England -- I'll state quite confidently that an architect could have designed a better course and saved more than their fee from the cost to construct.

And the owner gets to "design" however much they want anyway...

Mike,

The fellow in New England initiated the project as a labor of love, not one of financial gain.

He wanted to design the golf course, he wanted to drive the D-8 or D-6, he wanted to create something on his own, soup to nuts.

Had he wanted to develop a facility, for profit, I"m sure he would have engaged the services of a qualified professional.

Under your premise, I can't see why you wouldn't engage a professional.

« **Reply #7 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:31:58 PM »

Mike,

If I'm building a course that is a for profit deal, that needs to pay for itself than I am hiring a professional!

If I somehow won a giant powerball and was going to build just for myself then I'd probable still hire an architect but in more of a consultant role. I might hire more than one. Then I'd find the best draining land available and build the most wicked 9 hole course anybody has ever seen.

« **Reply #8 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:35:49 PM »

As part of my job I have to approve house plans for developments. It is fascinating how many plans come in drawn by contractors with no architect involved and how easy it is to spot these plans versus the ones that have an architect assisting. Someone I work with is fond of saying "Sure, you can design a house without an architect and it will be fine. But, they can sure save you from making mistakes that would be easily correctible on a drawing. Not so easy correctible once built."

I think you guys are basically saying the same thing. You can always tell an architect what you want. You can walk the property with them and work with them on the design. But, you run a risk if you don't involve one because some mistakes are not easy to fix.

« **Reply #9 on:** September 16, 2007, 09:30:40 PM »

Pat,
Thank you for the response -- but where did my premis say it was a profit gig? My current project certainly isn't in the short run.

Did the fellow in New England really think he could design a course better than Doak or C&C or Jones?
Does this fellow like to flush money down the drain?
How about Diesel or pipe or wire? Because if someone didn't know what they were doing they sure would waste a lot.

How is the client that uses an architect not creating something of his own?

Craig,
I like your thoughts.
If I were going to make my own course I'd ask Tom and Bill to walk my routing with me -- it can only get better -- once they pass along an idea the owner (me in this case) still makes the choice.

I believe that making the choices is what makes something their own.

« **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2007, 09:53:40 PM »

Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on September 16, 2007, 09:30:40 PM

If I were going to make my own course I'd ask Tom and Bill to walk my routing with me -- it can only get better -- once they pass along an idea the owner (me in this case) still makes the choice.

Mike,
With all due respect....why would you ask them to walk your routing? I would listen and learn all I can from any archie out there but on my project....I want to do it my way and my way only....AND I think most would.....I certainly would not want a client to think I wanted other archies walking my site...come on....

« **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:05:40 PM »

Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on September 16, 2007, 09:30:40 PM

Pat,
Thank you for the response -- but where did my premise say it was a profit gig? My current project certainly isn't in the short run.

Did the fellow in New England really think he could design a course better than Doak or C&C or Jones?

That was never his objective.

He wanted to design and build a golf course for himself, one he could play and enjoy.

Why must his efforts be viewed in a comparitive and/or competitive analysis ?[/color]

Does this fellow like to flush money down the drain ?

He doesn't like to do that, but, he can afford to do that.[/color]

How about Diesel or pipe or wire? Because if someone didn't know what they were doing they sure would waste a lot.

He was quite pleased with, and proud of his efforts, his labor of love, his baby.
He even likes mowing it on the tractor.[/color]

How is the client that uses an architect not creating something of his own ?

I don't think you can compare the two processes.
They're as different as night and day.[/color]

I believe that making the choices is what makes something their own.

If the executioner asks if you'd prefer the firing squad or hanging, I'm not so sure that you own your destiny [/color]

« **Reply #12 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:06:40 PM »

I also meant Mike Young too....

Wouldn't it have made sence for me to tell my client that we should fly Mike Young in to spend the weekend to help us with the construction side -- once we decided to build it ourselves?

If I had known more about you at the time I might have -- and I think it would have been helpful.

I think the real question is why would you come -- although if you asked me I definately would and think you'd be smart to ask.
That's why I said if it were my own course I'd solicit and pay for more ideas.

I believe it is about making the choices and maybe more importantly about getting and keeping the job.

« **Reply #13 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:09:02 PM »

Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on September 16, 2007, 10:06:40 PM

I also meant Mike Young too....

Wouldn't it have made sence for me to tell my client that we should fly Mike Young in to spend the weekend to help us with the construction side -- once we decided to build it ourselves?

If I had known more about you at the time I might have -- and I think it would have been helpful.

I think the real question is why would you come -- although if you asked me I definately would and think you'd be smart to ask.
That's why I said if it were my own course I'd solicit and pay for more ideas.

I believe it is about making the choices and maybe more importantly about getting and keeping the job.

NO NO NO...not me either.....you got to be a little cockier than that....you do it yourself.....

« **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:10:50 PM »

Mike

Those guys must be nicer than me if they will spend time walking your routing. I barely have enough time to do my own stuff much less help out other guys. That said, if you asked for my help, you are one of the few I would probably give some to!

« **Reply #15 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:13:59 PM »

Pat,
That was funny....
Yes choosing your own execution method is not really a choice.
Kind of like when I ask my daughter if she wants to race to bed of have me carry her?
She is just starting to figure it out...

Some days I enjoy riding the sand pro and finishing the greens a little. It is a bit like the japanese sand gardens for meditation. It certainly isn't the hard work -- like the dozer. There is really no way to mess up somethin in one fell swoop -- like with the dozer. And I think it adds something to have me do some very fine detail work -- a percent here a percent there.

My point is it is satisfying for me to get on a bull dozer too, but I'm just wasting deisel as compared to one of our skilled guys. I only jump on when no one is looking...

I didn't say he shouldn't do it himself, I said he would have a better golf course done for less money if he hired someone to help him with his goals.

« **Reply #16 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:17:58 PM »

Whoops...
Yes Jeff I'd ask you too.

And No I didn't ask anyone to walk my site with me.

I did send an early routing to a few people.... I wish I had sent it to you as you probably would have been quite helpful.
And in full disclouse there was a specific time a while ago I did think of how you would have been helpful with a specific topic.

Thank you for your kind words.

Cheers

« **Reply #17 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:26:31 PM »

Mike Nuzzo,

The incremental enhancement in the golf course wouldn't have been worth what he would have lost in terms of personal accomplishment and enjoying the fruits of his labors had he used others to assist him.

Sometimes it's the "effort" that's noble, irrespective of the results.

« **Reply #18 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:36:50 PM »

Pat,
That makes perfect sence -- I'm not disagreeing with you -- I'm sharing my perspective.

I agree the effort can lead to many wonderful things.

P.S.
I meant to say I didn't ask an architect to walk my site with me... before Don says something too...

It wasn't an accident I brought Don onto the project -- and it wasn't just for his superintendent skills.

Cheers

« **Reply #19 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:53:08 PM »

Shit -- I just saw Neal Meagher was on line --- yes I'd ask him too...

« **Reply #20 on:** September 17, 2007, 07:16:40 PM »

Speaking from my experience at Black Mesa I think hiring an experienced, thoughtful, and reasonable archie is the way to go, then just meddle and let him sweat the details and take the heat! Way fun.

« **Reply #21 on:** September 17, 2007, 07:39:24 PM »

Some years ago, Geoff Shackelford and I were going to help an owner design a golf course up near the Poconos. Geoff flew in to meet with me and we both spent several days on site, prepared some preliminary routings, hole concepts, etc. etc. We were going to get Gil Hanse involved with us but as it turned out, the owner was so set in his ways in what he wanted to do that we both turned down the project as we new he was going to take something that could be special (it really was a good piece of property), and turn it into a

The course ended up getting built by the owner on his own and we both agree we made the right decision to not be involved. I've told Geoff that someday he has to come back and see it though it will only remind him as it does me what it could have been.

« **Reply #22 on:** September 17, 2007, 09:54:01 PM »

I would use a piano salesman - it is my experience they clearly know more than architects.

« **Reply #23 on:** September 18, 2007, 12:13:17 AM »

If you were to write your autobiography - would you employ a ghostwriter? Only if you were doing it for the money, right?
Some folk might want to write their own story, in their own words, and see how it pans out, even if it might read a little clumsily. And your editor can help with that.

« **Reply #24 on:** September 18, 2007, 12:33:29 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd_Cole on September 18, 2007, 12:13:17 AM

If you were to write your autobiography - would you employ a ghostwriter? Only if you were doing it for the money, right?
Some folk might want to write their own story, in their own words, and see how it pans out, even if it might read a little clumsily. And your editor can help with that.

This makes sense.

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